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Thread: VA's restricted ammo law

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    VA's restricted ammo law

    18.2-308.3. Use or attempted use of restricted ammunition in commission or attempted commission of crimes prohibited; penalty.

    A. When used in this section:


    "Restricted firearm ammunition" applies to bullets, projectiles or other types of ammunition that are: (i) coated with or contain, in whole or in part, polytetrafluorethylene or a similar product, (ii) commonly known as "KTW" bullets or "French Arcanes," or (iii) any cartridges containing bullets coated with a plastic substance with other than lead or lead alloy cores, jacketed bullets with other than lead or lead alloy cores, or cartridges of which the bullet itself is wholly comprised of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. This definition shall not be construed to include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets.


    B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. Violation of this section shall constitute a separate and distinct felony and any person found guilty thereof shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.


    (1983, c. 602; 1988, c. 530


    Just so some of you are aware of this.
    As the subject came up at the picnic on Sunday.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    It's just another of the modifier laws to make an already illegal act more illegal.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    It's just another of the modifier laws to make an already illegal act more illegal.
    Yeah, in talking with Marco, Roby, and wrearick at the picnic it seemed like we came to the conclusion that if it's a legal shoot, this is not applicable. Just don't use 'em to commit a crime.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Plenty of alternative materials beyond PTFE or similar polymers to do the same job.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The problem would be if they use this law as a bigger hammer in cases where you aren't actually committing a crime, such as pointing a finger at a jerk security guard while carrying...

    TFred

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Plenty of alternative materials beyond PTFE or similar polymers to do the same job.
    Or just don't commit a gun crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Per my quick read --- Committing any crime while in possession of these projectiles makes the possession a felony, not just a gun crime, but any crime. So a conviction of disorderly conduct (misdemeanor) make possession of these projectiles a felony.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Per my quick read --- Committing any crime while in possession of these projectiles makes the possession a felony, not just a gun crime, but any crime. So a conviction of disorderly conduct (misdemeanor) make possession of these projectiles a felony.
    +1

    I stand corrected. I guess my point is don't commit a crime while carrying a gun loaded with these projectiles and you won't have a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Can you honestly say that you know every law well enough to get through the average day without breaking a law?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Can you honestly say that you know every law well enough to get through the average day without breaking a law?
    Even if you stay at home with the covers pulled up over your head you are breaking several laws. The point has become not "don't break the law" but "don't get caught breaking the law."

    And yes, we do have to contend with the notion that breaking the law is illegaler if it is done while in possession of a firearm.

    I'm pretty sure there is a mandatory three year enhancement for jaywalking with a gun. [/sarcasm]

    stay safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Can you honestly say that you know every law well enough to get through the average day without breaking a law?
    Let me count the ways
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    just for clarification for those not involved in the conversation at the picnic, we were discussing G2R's RIP rounds, but I am sure there are others that would fall within the breadth of the description in the law.

    http://g2rip.com/

    Thanks for posting the cite Marco!
    Last edited by wrearick; 10-06-2014 at 09:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Can you honestly say that you know every law well enough to get through the average day without breaking a law?
    I told a judge that we cannot .. he agreed .. I cautioned him on his black shoelaces, that a CFR could have been changed via an entry in the federal register this morning outlawing black shoelaces. He laughed. But the point was made. We were discussing why I would not allow a gov't official into my dwelling.

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    Regular Member BlueSquid's Avatar
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    I'm no lawyer, but I do believe this means I'm still okay to order and carry some of those Coonan silver bullets, ya know, for all the potential werewolves.

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    Well i guess this law would need to be changed before they ban lead ammo!!

    Seems like this would include "copper solids" such as barnes and others. Fairly popular rounds...

    "Attempting to commit a crime" what wxactly does that mean?

    I think my copper solids are going to be practice ammo, never cared for coated bullets seem to just make fouling even worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conhntr View Post
    Well i guess this law would need to be changed before they ban lead ammo!!

    Seems like this would include "copper solids" such as barnes and others. Fairly popular rounds...

    "Attempting to commit a crime" what wxactly does that mean?

    I think my copper solids are going to be practice ammo, never cared for coated bullets seem to just make fouling even worse.
    Indeed, there are a lot of really good hunting rounds coming out now that are all copper. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would make getting lost in the woods and crossing a property line with such ammo a felony.

    This law definitely needs to go, I'm pretty sure it was a knee-jerk reaction to the Black-Talon hype of years past.

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    good lord

    well, more crap to worry about. Love barnes and cop rounds. I thought the pc world was growing towards less of that awful lead. Now im lost. Looking into it further, I think its based around supposed armor piercing rounds like the steel core german rounds, some five sevens, talons and such. So trying to rob a place and then potentially being able to defeat armor is the prohibition. Or carrying with the intention to defeat armor to escape. All copper rounds(lead free) will not defeat armor and seems to maybe not even fit into this law. Seems like its talking about steel and other metal cores and special coatings unlike the polymer plunger in hornadys. I may be wrong, id love to know cases and prosecutions. But any law can be stretched to outlaw even breathing if given a chance. Funny how your average deer rifle will defeat much armor but all these exotic myths really wont and the one that actually would out of a pistol isnt even known about (utr) and was dirt cheap in the 90 s. German barricade busters anyone? I guess if found with these chambered your burden would be to prove an intention of self defense not an intention of defeating good guys vests. Id love to know more because I love exotic ammo.
    If you can not move at 1100 fps, then pass me by.

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    " or cartridges of which the bullet itself is wholly comprised of a metal or metal alloy other than lead"

    Steel core may have been the intention, but the wording would absolutely include solid copper rounds. In the end, what the GA intended is completely meaningless when it comes to enforcing the law as written.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Well....Marco, this is on my hit list this year even though I don't have any pull.
    It is being looked at for revisions by members of the GA.
    That really only means I've asked for revisions which is first base and they have responded favorably and asked for details. That's second base.

    Will it go any further? Who knows.....every now and then a blind hog finds an acorn and every once in a while I'm successful. It's way too early to know.

    This is one of two bills I'm pushing right now and assuming I don't have to fight any P4P, there is a chance. I'll kee you updated.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Well....Marco, this is on my hit list this year even though I don't have any pull.
    It is being looked at for revisions by members of the GA.
    That really only means I've asked for revisions which is first base and they have responded favorably and asked for details. That's second base.

    Will it go any further? Who knows.....every now and then a blind hog finds an acorn and every once in a while I'm successful. It's way too early to know.

    This is one of two bills I'm pushing right now and assuming I don't have to fight any P4P, there is a chance. I'll kee you updated.

    Awesome! Let me know if there is anything I can do to help (attending lobby day is already a given!)

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Peter, let me know what/if any assistance I can render.

    ******************************
    There are many stupid laws we all need to work on getting changed.

    Now, personally I'm not going to worry about this stupid law just like I don't concern myself with the 1000ft school non sense.

    Heck, if I choose to worry about all the nonsense laws that were, are and shall be I'd never leave the house.

    http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/You...6/Default.aspx



    Barnes Tac/XP will remain as my primary EDC load.
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    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
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    Everyone please read again.

    "B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly USEor attempt to USE restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. ..."

    "Use" not posses as in ones pocket while committing a crime.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    Rotating inclined plane on a rod.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    Everyone please read again.

    "B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly USEor attempt to USE restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. ..."

    "Use" not posses as in ones pocket while committing a crime.
    I don't know of any prosecutor who would try to twist "use" into a pretzel... /sarc off/

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtackDuck View Post
    I don't know of any prosecutor who would try to twist "use" into a pretzel... /sarc off/


    Marco I sent you a PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    Everyone please read again.

    "B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly USEor attempt to USE restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. ..."

    "Use" not posses as in ones pocket while committing a crime.
    I realize that your arguing from the standpoint of a LAC in mere possession, but be careful here. The statute may say "possess", but it doesn't define "attempt". If some (over)zealous CA wants to press the issue, s/he might argue that the mere possession of these prohibited rounds (in one's pocket) at the crime scene (could be construed as) enabling the perp to attempt their use in the commission of the crime. And, since these arguments won't be heard until court proceedings begin, the individual could still be arrested under such a charge.

    Just because you've decided to have lunch at Panera while OCing and carrying your supply of these restricted rounds in your pocket and find yourself the object of attention of an anonymous attempted armed robbery report, the conditions stated in this statute may not be helpful.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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