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Thread: Cop cannot ask if vehicle occupant has a gun -- court ruling NY - 4th amend

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    Cop cannot ask if vehicle occupant has a gun -- court ruling NY - 4th amend

    “[T]he police may not ask an occupant of a lawfully stopped vehicle if he or she has any weapons unless they have a founded suspicion that criminality is afoot.” The search here was invalid. People v. Wideman, 2014 NY Slip Op 06698, 2014 N.Y. App. Div. LEXIS 6678 (4th Dept. October 3, 2014):


    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=13616



    Interesting...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    What you mean the cops in the line of duty don't have the same rights as "civilians"......just like we been saying all along.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    “[T]he police may not ask an occupant of a lawfully stopped vehicle if he or she has any weapons unless they have a founded suspicion that criminality is afoot.” The search here was invalid. People v. Wideman, 2014 NY Slip Op 06698, 2014 N.Y. App. Div. LEXIS 6678 (4th Dept. October 3, 2014):


    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=13616



    Interesting...
    What????? Another case in favor of citizens?? The police are smacked down again? No way...

    In NY?? The bastion of oppression and tyranny??

    Sorry couldn't help it guys.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Actually on top it says they can't even ask for a consensual search of the vehicle without some kind of RAS. Another win.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Actually on top it says they can't even ask for a consensual search of the vehicle without some kind of RAS. Another win.
    For NY.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    For NY.
    I agree. Win for them
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I agree. Win for them
    Feel free to cite the case in your state too ! Its allowed.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Feel free to cite the case in your state too ! Its allowed.
    What's allowed and what case? In may state I can ask all I want. But they can also tell me to kick rocks. But I ask really nicely.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    What's allowed and what case? In may state I can ask all I want. But they can also tell me to kick rocks. But I ask really nicely.
    Thou dost miss the point...again. Why would you ask in the first place1.





    1State law may require notification.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Thou dost miss the point...again. Why would you ask in the first place1.





    1State law may require notification.
    Why would I ask you? I wouldn't ever.

    Would I ask others? Yes.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Generally, out of state decisions are cited for "persuasive authority" only versus instate cited cases are “binding precedent.”

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Thou dost miss the point...again. Why would you ask in the first place1.





    1State law may require notification.
    To give the impression under color of law that he "needs to know" the info.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    To give the impression under color of law that he "needs to know" the info.
    Most citizens hear a cop ask and they comply, blindly, without legal justification be provided by the cop. Cops like this.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Most citizens hear a cop ask and they comply, blindly, without legal justification be provided by the cop. Cops like this.
    Yep, and in my personal experience and from countless videos and news reports they don't like it when people don't give them what they want.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    "Stop and frisk" was supposed to end in NYC by court order as well. It hasn't.


    The ruling in the OP will be disregarded whenever an officer feels like it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Why would I ask you? I wouldn't ever.

    Would I ask others? Yes.
    That's very true cuz the chance of we meeting, where you are a uniformed cop and me a motorist, in MA, is zero. So, the only valid portion of the above post is the second phrase.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    That's very true cuz the chance of we meeting, where you are a uniformed cop and me a motorist, in MA, is zero. So, the only valid portion of the above post is the second phrase.
    You missed the point of me saying that. Either intentionally or otherwise.

    Even if you were directly in front of me on a stop I doubt I would ask to search. You wouldn't meet the criteria (i cant be certain, but i sincerely doubt it) and I don't hassle random citizens for no reason.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You wouldn't meet the criteria.
    "Meet the criteria" like maybe a frisbee golfer for instance?

    Profiled for disk golfing
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPo7vW3mxx0

    ALL citizens "meet the criteria". In some way we are all breaking one "law" or another, there are tens of thousands to choose from. It just depends which LEO you come across and how much of a goosestepping Nazi he/she is.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    "Meet the criteria" like maybe a frisbee golfer for instance?

    Profiled for disk golfing
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPo7vW3mxx0

    ALL citizens "meet the criteria". In some way we are all breaking one "law" or another, there are tens of thousands to choose from. It just depends which LEO you come across and how much of a goosestepping Nazi he/she is.
    You my friend are also missing the point. Intentionally.

    I'm showing an example of NOT harassing citizens for no reason. Instead you twist it into "goosestepping" lol.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You my friend are also missing the point. Intentionally.

    I'm showing an example of NOT harassing citizens for no reason. Instead you twist it into "goosestepping" lol.
    I know exactly what you mean, and I believe you when you say you don't go around harassing citizens. It's your "brothers and sisters" in blue I'm talking about.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    I know exactly what you mean, and I believe you when you say you don't go around harassing citizens. It's your "brothers and sisters" in blue I'm talking about.
    I agree and I'm glad we are on the same page.

    All I can say is every person has family members that are slightly lower in IQ or that they are definitely not proud of. Those "brothers and sisters" you speak of would be those in my family that I would slap some sense into if I could. Out of love of course.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I agree and I'm glad we are on the same page.

    All I can say is every person has family members that are slightly lower in IQ or that they are definitely not proud of. Those "brothers and sisters" you speak of would be those in my family that I would slap some sense into if I could. Out of love of course.
    This assertion is false, you have stated otherwise.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Don't like it. Imo It propagates the myth that anything said by a cop is a lawful demand backed by law. We can't let cops ask this question because anything the cop asks must be legally answered.
    pffffft!

    Better to teach people they do not have to answer the cop if he DOES ask and he cannot detain you for not answering.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This assertion is false, you have stated otherwise.
    I can't. To slap anyone would be assault and battery at the very least. Unless of course it was in the defense of myself or others.

    I'd rather not catch a case. Thanks.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Wonder how that would effect "must advise" laws in states such as NC?

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