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Thread: OCer cited for OCing in Walmart

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    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    OCer cited for OCing in Walmart

    Seems there is either confusion with the LEO or the AG. Anyone know the deal with AR now?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chRibdPkmIo

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    Alarm alarm alarm ! I would be doing a record request and find out who called on you and then threaten to sue their ass as well as the cops.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REDFIVE48 View Post
    Seems there is either confusion with the LEO or the AG. Anyone know the deal with AR now?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chRibdPkmIo
    well first of all is AR a stop and ID state thats the first thing i'd be asking. Second, i'm amazed at how the officer treated the young man. While I don't agree with these laws in the least, I have to admit it was one of the friendlier encounters. Officer even acted like he wasnt sure about things instead of making things up as he went along. Question is did he leave something out that would in fact have allowed the gentleman to OC with a permit?
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I'm sure I missed it on the video, but what was the citation for? Which part of the Arkansas code?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    well first of all is AR a stop and ID state thats the first thing i'd be asking.
    § 5-71-213 - Loitering.
    (a) A person commits the offense of loitering if he or she:

    (1) Lingers, remains, or prowls in a public place or the premises of another without apparent reason and under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity and, upon inquiry by a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself and give a reasonably credible account of his or her presence and purpose;

    (2) Lingers, remains, or prowls in or near a school building, not having any reason or relationship involving custody of or responsibility for a student and not having written permission from anyone authorized to grant permission;

    (3) Lingers or remains in a public place or on the premises of another for the purpose of begging;

    (4) Lingers or remains in a public place for the purpose of unlawful gambling;

    (5) Lingers or remains in a public place for the purpose of engaging or soliciting another person to engage in prostitution or deviate sexual activity;

    (6) Lingers or remains in a public place for the purpose of unlawfully buying, distributing, or using a controlled substance;

    (7) Lingers or remains in a public place for the purpose of unlawfully buying, distributing, or consuming an alcoholic beverage;

    (8) Lingers or remains on or about the premises of another for the purpose of spying upon or invading the privacy of another; or

    (9) Lingers or remains on or about the premises of any off-site customer-bank communication terminal without any legitimate purpose.

    (b) Among the circumstances that may be considered in determining whether a person is loitering are that the person:

    (1) Takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer;

    (2) Refuses to identify himself or herself; or

    (3) Manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object.

    (c) Unless flight by the actor or another circumstance makes it impracticable, prior to an arrest for an offense under subdivision (a)(1) of this section a law enforcement officer shall afford the actor an opportunity to dispel any alarm that would otherwise be warranted by requesting the actor to identify himself or herself and explain his or her presence and conduct.

    (d) It is a defense to a prosecution under subdivision (a)(1) of this section if:

    (1) The law enforcement officer did not afford the defendant an opportunity to identify himself or herself and explain his or presence and conduct; or

    (2) It appears at trial that an explanation given by the defendant to the law enforcement officer was true and, if believed by the law enforcement officer at that time, would have dispelled the alarm.

    (e) Loitering is a Class C misdemeanor.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post

    (1) Lingers, remains, or prowls in a public place or the premises of another without apparent reason and under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity and, upon inquiry by a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself and give a reasonably credible account of his or her presence and purpose;
    hmmmmm. Is there anything in AR statutes to prevent an LEO saying the carrying of a weapon is cause for alarm or causing a disturbance? Also the guy had a clear reason to be in Walmart. Shopping.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    hmmmmm. Is there anything in AR statutes to prevent an LEO saying the carrying of a weapon is cause for alarm or causing a disturbance? Also the guy had a clear reason to be in Walmart. Shopping.
    My apologies, I should have prefaced that with "This is as close to 'Stop and Identify' as Arkansas law gets. I would agree that shopping in an open store is definitely Not any sort of lingering, remaining or prowling under any circumstances that warrant alarm.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Law.Justia.com has apparently not updated their webpage with the latest, so here is my best representation of the new code..

    SECTION 2. Arkansas Code §5-73-120 is amended to read as follows:
    5-73-120. Carrying a weapon.
    (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to attempt to unlawfully employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.
    (b) As used in this section:
    (1) “Club” means any instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious physical injury or death by striking, including a blackjack, billie, and sap;
    (2) “Handgun” means any firearm with a barrel length of less than twelve inches (12") that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one (1) hand; and
    (3) "Journey" means travel beyond the county in which a person lives; and
    (4)“Knife” means any bladed hand instrument three inches (3") or longer that is capable of inflicting serious physical injury or death by cutting or stabbing, including a dirk, a sword or spear in a cane, a razor, an ice pick, a throwing star, a switchblade, and a butterfly knife.
    (c) It is permissible to carry a handgun under this section that if at the time of the act of carrying a weapon:
    (1) The person is in his or her own dwelling, or place of business, or on property in which he or she has a possessory or proprietary interest;
    (2) The person is a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces acting in the course and scope of his or her official duties;
    (3) The person is assisting a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces acting in the course and scope of his or her official duties pursuant to the direction or request of
    the law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces;
    (4) The person is carrying a weapon when upon a journey, unless the journey is through a commercial airport when presenting at the security checkpoint in the airport or is in the person's checked baggage and is not a lawfully declared weapon;
    (5) The person is a registered commissioned security guard acting in the course and scope of his or her duties;
    (6) The person is hunting game with a handgun that may be hunted with a handgun under rules and regulations of the Arkansas State Game and Fish Commission or is en route to or from a hunting area for the purpose of hunting game with a handgun;
    (7) The person is a certified law enforcement officer; or
    (8) The person is in possession of a concealed handgun and has a valid license to carry a concealed handgun under §5-73-301 et seq., or recognized under §5-73-321 and is not in a prohibited place as defined by § 5-73-306; or
    (9) The person is in possession of a handgun and is a retired law enforcement officer with a valid concealed carry authorization issued under federal or state law.
    I imagine the stickler is 5-73-120 (c) (8) which says a concealed handgun and a license for concealing a handgun are a defense but doesn't address carrying a handgun openly. Does the motto 'that which is not prohibited, is allowed' apply?
    (c) is one of those odd Code sections/law that 'allows' rather than the usual rule of laws prohibiting an action.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-11-2014 at 08:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    For the out of state guys, we had a law pass this year in AR, act 749 or 746, i forget. It basically removed the word "Concealed" from the definition of the crime which is what MS did as well which "should" have allowed for OC if on a "journey" outside your county. However the AG and AR State Police have refused to recognize the new wording. The same thing happened in MS with LEOs telling me that the lawmakers didnt know what they were passing and would be passing new laws to undo the law they had just passed but... that never happened so MS is constitutional carry now... and nothing happened.


    I suspect this will have to go to court to be resolved. There have been a few OC walks in large groups but most sheriffs/ASP/Local LEOs are denying the new Act allows for OC.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    jour·ney
    ˈjərnē/
    noun
    noun: journey; plural noun: journeys

    1.
    an act of traveling from one place to another.
    "she went on a long journey"


    I see nothing about counties in the definition, is there a definition for journey in the statutes?
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    > Kopis - 746 according to post #7. Post #9 is what 746 will change the Code to read (minus the struck out parts, with the added parts)

    > WalkingWolf - Did you read paragraph 5-73-120 (b) (3) in my post?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-13-2014 at 12:18 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    > Kopis - 746 according to post #7. Post #9 is what 746 will change the Code to read (minus the struck out parts, with the added parts)

    > WalkingWolf - Did you read paragraph 5-73-120 (b) (3) in my post?
    I missed it, that is the problem with long than necessary laws. IMO that description is kinda dumb, why should anyone be denied their right to self defense in their own county, but allowed in another. Seems like a law to increase gasoline tax revenue.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    jour·ney
    ˈjərnē/
    noun
    noun: journey; plural noun: journeys

    1.
    an act of traveling from one place to another.
    "she went on a long journey"


    I see nothing about counties in the definition, is there a definition for journey in the statutes?

    WW, yes i thought there was another statute that clarified a journey as leaving ones home county/county of residence. I could be mistaken though. That's impossible to prove either way at any rate... Im going to Memphis, Jonesboro, etc after i get gas...

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    For the out of state guys, we had a law pass this year in AR, act 749 or 746, i forget. It basically removed the word "Concealed" from the definition of the crime which is what MS did as well which "should" have allowed for OC if on a "journey" outside your county. However the AG and AR State Police have refused to recognize the new wording. The same thing happened in MS with LEOs telling me that the lawmakers didnt know what they were passing and would be passing new laws to undo the law they had just passed but... that never happened so MS is constitutional carry now... and nothing happened.


    I suspect this will have to go to court to be resolved. There have been a few OC walks in large groups but most sheriffs/ASP/Local LEOs are denying the new Act allows for OC.
    Well there you have it. The law passed and that gives the people he power to exercise that right and if need be enforce it. It's law. You can't refuse to recognise it. Not without major consequences
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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Well there you have it. The law passed and that gives the people he power to exercise that right and if need be enforce it. It's law. You can't refuse to recognise it. Not without major consequences
    in case you havent noticed, they can and are refusing to recognize it without any consequences.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    in case you havent noticed, they can and are refusing to recognize it without any consequences.
    Why are we letting them then? No point complaining about rights being violated unless one is willing to do something about it?
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Why are we letting them then? No point complaining about rights being violated unless one is willing to do something about it?
    Good point.

    So what are u going to do about it?
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Good point.

    So what are u going to do about it?
    I'm not even sure what exactly you are. LEO of some sort. Might have heard Military Police. In either case I don't get questioned by law enforcement.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    I'm not even sure what exactly you are. LEO of some sort. Might have heard Military Police. In either case I don't get questioned by law enforcement.
    I'm not a LEO, what is your plan?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    I'm not even sure what exactly you are. LEO of some sort. Might have heard Military Police. In either case I don't get questioned by law enforcement.
    I think you meant to say you don't answer questions from law enforcement... Because you were questioned. A very simple one that has no relevance to my employment. Just sheer curiosity. Also this is a gun forum. Maybe othwrs to include myself could help you.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    Since it seems the AG and police are interpreting the amended law negatively, should open carry maps reflect Arkansas differently? The map shows it a gold star state, seems like the clarification really hurt the liberties of gun owners there, well I guess till the courts make a ruling.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I think you meant to say you don't answer questions from law enforcement... Because you were questioned. A very simple one that has no relevance to my employment. Just sheer curiosity. Also this is a gun forum. Maybe othwrs to include myself could help you.
    Nice dodge. Still not answered what kind of enforcement you are and that last part was so badly worded i'm not sure what you meant. But i'm quite sure you cannot help me
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    I'm not a LEO, what is your plan?
    well i'm in WI so thats probably a discussion for that sub-forum. But in general it would be, see if there is a big enough activist population locally and get something going.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Nice dodge. Still not answered what kind of enforcement you are and that last part was so badly worded i'm not sure what you meant. But i'm quite sure you cannot help me
    What kind of law enforcement he is in, is irrelevant to actual discussion.
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