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Thread: Moving to Wisconsin soon, likely Kenosha County - Dog park rules!

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    Question Moving to Wisconsin soon, likely Kenosha County - Dog park rules!

    I was looking up rules for the dog parks in the local area, and I see this:

    http://wi-kenoshacounty.civicplus.co...x.aspx?NID=621

    The off-leash dog park is for dogs and their handlers. No other type of animal (i.e. hunting or other use) is allowed. No firearms, starting pistols are permitted. See Bong State Park for a hunting dog training area.
    Doesn't state preemption prevent this from being legal?

    I know in Illinois (where I am at the moment) I can carry (albeit concealed) in Forest preserves like dog parks, and some have not updating their websites and signs. But I just ignore.

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    It's probably not even legal under their ordinances.

    Here they are, all 755 pages. http://www.kenosha.org/departments/c...GeneralOrd.pdf

    Look in Section VI late to see that the park superintendent can prohibit pretty much what he wants; there is not even an ordinance addressing firearms in parks that I found.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    I was looking up rules for the dog parks in the local area, and I see this:

    http://wi-kenoshacounty.civicplus.co...x.aspx?NID=621



    Doesn't state preemption prevent this from being legal?

    I know in Illinois (where I am at the moment) I can carry (albeit concealed) in Forest preserves like dog parks, and some have not updating their websites and signs. But I just ignore.

    As far as I am aware, yes. The only things which are not covered are public buildings which so far are still outside the bounds of the Constitution still. We can only hope someone challenges this legislation but in your case I believe you are just fine. Perhaps an email to the people in charge warning them of the illegal signage would be helpful.

    66.0409 Local Regulation of Firearms
    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a
    resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession,
    bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm,
    including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar
    to, and no more stringent than, a state statute
    have a look at handgunlaw which gives you all the information you need
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    66.0409 is a toothless tiger. There is no office charged with its enforcement nor any penalty associated.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Thanks everyone. I think that's a little clearer.

    Is there a way to find out for sure (without being arrested!) Has anyone open carried in dog parks before?

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    What one might be arrested for has little to do with the possible charges. On a bad day the cop CAN arrest you for mopery with intent to gawp. The prosecuting attorney has to find a charge for which he can take the political heat. He's not likely going to charge for armed in the park. They took disorderly conduct away, so it might be some resisting/obstructing/failure to obey.

    Whether one has carried successfully in a dog park is only whether the observing cop, if there is one, wanted to bother with the issue.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-10-2014 at 06:34 PM.
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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    What one might be arrested for has little to do with the possible charges. On a bad day the cop CAN arrest you for mopery with intent to gawp. The prosecuting attorney has to find a charge for which he can take the political heat. He's not likely going to charge for armed in the park. They took disorderly conduct away, so it might be some resisting/obstructing/failure to obey.

    Whether one has carried successfully in a dog park is only whether the observing cop, if there is one, wanted to bother with the issue.
    even if you're failing to obey something you don't have to in the first place <snark>
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Combining preemption (66.0409) http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/docu...atutes/66.0409

    with the law about state parks / fish hatcheries (29.089) http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...utes/29/II/089

    no, they're not allowed to prohibit people from being in the park while armed.


    See 29.089(2). It used to say "state parks & fish hatcheries".
    It was changed by 2011 act 168 http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/168
    which took effect (for 29.089) on 01JAN13.


    Probably the county needs a letter to nudge them into updating their ordinances.
    If you do get hassled by anyone official-like for carrying while exercising your dog, let us know.

    Also, get on the Wisconsin Carry facebook page. (And join the org if you can spare $10 / year.) If anything happens to you, WI Carry members will back you up, and often our emails & phone calls are all it takes to remind gov't that they work for us & have to follow the law.

    Oconomowoc (a bit west of Milwaukee) had a kerfluffle this past spring when a guy OC'd in a park. The news made a big thing about it, then backed off when the city council & counsel realized their ordinance wasn't legal. The chief was big enough to admit that he'd been wrong, and was instructing his officers not to bother anyone simply for being armed in a park. I think Nik (WI Carry president) made him & the city understand the expensive problem they could create for themselves.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 10-15-2014 at 12:41 AM.
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    Let the buyer beware. Nobody except N Clark knows how many active dues paying members there are in the WCI and he has never released that info. Might be 2 or 20. I would want to know before putting 10 bucks in his club.
    Last edited by Franky; 10-15-2014 at 12:25 PM. Reason: spd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Let the buyer beware. Nobody except N Clark knows how many active dues paying members there are in the WCI and he has never released that info. Might be 2 or 20. I would want to know before putting 10 bucks in his club.
    Same issue with Corey Graf's WGO. Rice-bowl politics.
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    Isn't it against the law for a Bears fan to become a Packer fan?

    Since you're making the move nearer to the great white north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Let the buyer beware. Nobody except N Clark knows how many active dues paying members there are in the WCI and he has never released that info. Might be 2 or 20. I would want to know before putting 10 bucks in his club.
    That's an interesting viewpoint. There are over 200 people listed as "Founder's" alone. I'm 100% certain quite a few people have joined since 2009.

    http://wisconsincarry.org/founders
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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    That's an interesting viewpoint. There are over 200 people listed as "Founder's" alone. I'm 100% certain quite a few people have joined since 2009.

    http://wisconsincarry.org/founders
    Ah, maybe you've missed the bigger picture (or maybe not) - poor ol' Doug Huffman (BANNED from this site - now reincarnated as sockpuppets Nightmare & Franky) was spurned by Wisconsin Carry, so he bashes the organization every chance he gets. Usually by making totally unfounded accusations or slinging "low-membership" innuendo such as this, in a pathetic attempt to sway people's opinion against WCI.

    Personally, I think he was butthurt years ago by something Nik Clark said or did, so Dougie tries to take out his frustrations against the entire organization. In fact, other than anti-gunners, he's about the only one I've ever heard who bashes WCI, so that should tell you the proper amount of credence one should lend to his rants.



    OK Dougie, follow your usual pattern and flame away! It won't bother me in the least, because no one listens to you except... you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    That's an interesting viewpoint. There are over 200 people listed as "Founder's" alone. I'm 100% certain quite a few people have joined since 2009.

    http://wisconsincarry.org/founders
    Interesting in part by your flawed logic concerning the founders list. My name still appears on said list and I kicked the WCI club to the curb after the March 2010 Thunder Bay Grill event I attended. The list you mention is way, way out of date if one thinks everyone on the founders list is a current dues paying member.

    I scanned the founders club list and personally know more than a few who no longer belong to the WCI club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Ah, maybe you've missed the bigger picture (or maybe not) - poor ol' Doug Huffman (BANNED from this site - now reincarnated as sockpuppets Nightmare & Franky) was spurned by Wisconsin Carry, so he bashes the organization every chance he gets. Usually by making totally unfounded accusations or slinging "low-membership" innuendo such as this, in a pathetic attempt to sway people's opinion against WCI.

    Personally, I think he was butthurt years ago by something Nik Clark said or did, so Dougie tries to take out his frustrations against the entire organization. In fact, other than anti-gunners, he's about the only one I've ever heard who bashes WCI, so that should tell you the proper amount of credence one should lend to his rants.



    OK Dougie, follow your usual pattern and flame away! It won't bother me in the least, because no one listens to you except... you.
    I realize this. I don't usually engage with it/them. Sometimes I just can't help myself. But then I usually lose interest quickly. It's a pointless exercise. The definition of delusion is "a fixed false belief." In other words, it's unlikely any of their beliefs will change . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Ah, maybe you've missed the bigger picture (or maybe not) - poor ol' Doug Huffman (BANNED from this site - now reincarnated as sockpuppets Nightmare & Franky) was spurned by Wisconsin Carry, so he bashes the organization every chance he gets. Usually by making totally unfounded accusations or slinging "low-membership" innuendo such as this, in a pathetic attempt to sway people's opinion against WCI.

    Personally, I think he was butthurt years ago by something Nik Clark said or did, so Dougie tries to take out his frustrations against the entire organization. In fact, other than anti-gunners, he's about the only one I've ever heard who bashes WCI, so that should tell you the proper amount of credence one should lend to his rants.



    OK Dougie, follow your usual pattern and flame away! It won't bother me in the least, because no one listens to you except... you.
    I have no relationship with a Dougie or Nightmare but since you have insulted me with your sockpuppet comment I will respond. I know you from the now defunct Lizzys Green cafe and the hardly-ableson crisis in Delavan. From your post above I see you are still as distasteful as was the case when I met you in person.

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    One of my favorite quotes from the FX tv series Justified:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    I realize this. I don't usually engage with it/them. Sometimes I just can't help myself. But then I usually lose interest quickly. It's a pointless exercise. The definition of delusion is "a fixed false belief." In other words, it's unlikely any of their beliefs will change . . .
    I figured as much. And I know exactly what you mean... I feel the same way as you - sometimes I just can't help myself, but it usually gets old fast!
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    I have no relationship with a Dougie or Nightmare but since you have insulted me with your sockpuppet comment I will respond. I know you from the now defunct Lizzys Green cafe and the hardly-ableson crisis in Delavan.
    Oh, really? Don't you mean you read about those experiences in this forum? Because if you were actually present, I would know who you are - I know the name of every person I interacted with at Lizzy's and in Delavan. So why don't you post your name here, so I can call you a liar outright?

    Oh, that's right - you won't ever do that, because then someone (police, maybe?) might be able to track you down for stalking... In that case, fine - if posting your name here is too public, go ahead and PM it to me! (I won't hold my breath watching my inbox...)

    From your post above I see you are still as distasteful as was the case when I met you in person.
    Now I know you're full of it. No one who ate dinner with me at Lizzy's or socialized with me at Starbucks found me distasteful. I'm a frickin' social butterfly, liked by all and despised by none!
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Oh, really? Don't you mean you read about those experiences in this forum? Because if you were actually present, I would know who you are - I know the name of every person I interacted with at Lizzy's and in Delavan. So why don't you post your name here, so I can call you a liar outright?

    Oh, that's right - you won't ever do that, because then someone (police, maybe?) might be able to track you down for stalking... In that case, fine - if posting your name here is too public, go ahead and PM it to me! (I won't hold my breath watching my inbox...)



    Now I know you're full of it. No one who ate dinner with me at Lizzy's or socialized with me at Starbucks found me distasteful. I'm a frickin' social butterfly, liked by all and despised by none!
    Another insult calling me a liar so I will respond. I never used my given name when interacting with the Kansasville group and I never insinuated I dined with you or your group. I hung in the twilight zone and socialized with many includiing you once which was more than enough. Never at SBs.

    """"""" Lake is kind of a nice little town. Perhaps the OPie possibly will be your neighbor. A motorcycle refresher course might possibly be beneficial as we sometimes get lax.
    Last edited by Franky; 10-17-2014 at 01:53 AM. Reason: sbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Combining preemption (66.0409) http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/docu...atutes/66.0409

    with the law about state parks / fish hatcheries (29.089) http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...utes/29/II/089

    no, they're not allowed to prohibit people from being in the park while armed.


    See 29.089(2). It used to say "state parks & fish hatcheries".
    It was changed by 2011 act 168 http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/168
    which took effect (for 29.089) on 01JAN13.


    Probably the county needs a letter to nudge them into updating their ordinances.
    If you do get hassled by anyone official-like for carrying while exercising your dog, let us know.

    Also, get on the Wisconsin Carry facebook page. (And join the org if you can spare $10 / year.) If anything happens to you, WI Carry members will back you up, and often our emails & phone calls are all it takes to remind gov't that they work for us & have to follow the law.

    Oconomowoc (a bit west of Milwaukee) had a kerfluffle this past spring when a guy OC'd in a park. The news made a big thing about it, then backed off when the city council & counsel realized their ordinance wasn't legal. The chief was big enough to admit that he'd been wrong, and was instructing his officers not to bother anyone simply for being armed in a park. I think Nik (WI Carry president) made him & the city understand the expensive problem they could create for themselves.
    Sorry, got sidetracked, back again!

    Any advice on format. Has anybody challenged local ordinance before?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    with the law about state parks / fish hatcheries (29.089) http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...utes/29/II/089

    no, they're not allowed to prohibit people from being in the park while armed.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    See 29.089(2). It used to say "state parks & fish hatcheries".
    It was changed by 2011 act 168 http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/168
    which took effect (for 29.089) on 01JAN13.

    29.089  Hunting, fishing, and trapping on land in state parks and state fish hatcheries.
    [ ...]
    (2) No person may have in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land located in state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. This subsection does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who is employed in this state by a public agency as a law enforcement officer and to whom s. 941.23 (1) (g) 2. to 5. and (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
    (b) A qualified out-of-state law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (g), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
    (c) A former officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (c), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (c) 1. to 7. applies.
    (d) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the firearm is a handgun, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (bm).
    History: 1989 a. 214; 1997 a. 237; 1997 a. 248 s. 599; Stats. 1997 s. 29.089; 2001 a. 109; 2005 a. 286; 2011 a. 35, 168.
    Cross-reference: See also ss. NR 10.001 and 10.28, Wis. adm. code.


    So open and concealed carry of handguns is permitted. Am I reading this right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    I was looking up rules for the dog parks in the local area, and I see this:

    http://wi-kenoshacounty.civicplus.co...x.aspx?NID=621



    Doesn't state preemption prevent this from being legal?

    I know in Illinois (where I am at the moment) I can carry (albeit concealed) in Forest preserves like dog parks, and some have not updating their websites and signs. But I just ignore.
    A just ignore philosophy could possibly be quite spendy here in Wisco. I do not believe the people here giving you the yay or nay advice will offer to pay your attorney fees.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    29.089  Hunting, fishing, and trapping on land in state parks and state fish hatcheries.
    [ ...]
    (2) No person may have in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land located in state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. This subsection does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who is employed in this state by a public agency as a law enforcement officer and to whom s. 941.23 (1) (g) 2. to 5. and (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
    (b) A qualified out-of-state law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (g), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
    (c) A former officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (c), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (c) 1. to 7. applies.
    (d) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the firearm is a handgun, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (bm).
    History: 1989 a. 214; 1997 a. 237; 1997 a. 248 s. 599; Stats. 1997 s. 29.089; 2001 a. 109; 2005 a. 286; 2011 a. 35, 168.
    Cross-reference: See also ss. NR 10.001 and 10.28, Wis. adm. code.


    So open and concealed carry of handguns is permitted. Am I reading this right?
    With a CCL at a fish hatchery. State park is no longer covered, as has been mentioned.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    Sorry, got sidetracked, back again!

    Any advice on format. Has anybody challenged local ordinance before?
    Yes, write a letter to your alderman and the mayor.

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