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Thread: Drinking, holsters, threats, and Indy 2nd half

  1. #1
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Drinking, holsters, threats, and Indy 2nd half

    I wanted to share a story from a few weeks ago in downtown Henderson at the El dorado casino. Back story first. I OC a .40 hi-point (haters gonna hate but you guys can't make fun of my wheel gun anymore!) When I am running around town and end up at a casino I keep it in the truck for a few reasons. First I would be asked to leave right away before I got a football bet in and second on the occasion that I enjoy to many libations. .10 can sneak up on you. Agree with them or not this is how I usually go about things. Reflecting on what happened I would have done things very differently. Now off to the story.

    It was a Sunday evening and I was running errands with my father when he suggested we run into the El-Do casino to get a bet in on the bronco colts game. On this occasion I did not take my holster off my belt, but simply put the firearm in its special place in the truck. I then covered my now empty holster with my T-shirt. The game had already started so we decided to belly up to the bar for a refreshing beverage till half time so we could bet the 2nd half of the game. We sat next to a couple we will call "jack" and "Jill". We have chatted with them before and were nice enough people. They are huge Denver fans and I was trying to make conversation about the 2nd half bet with them. Well that turned into my father betting Jill 5 bucks no line to make the game interesting to us at least. Seemed innocent enough. She was in good spirits. Then the beer kicked in and Jack now became pugnacious.

    Seems he was insulted that a man would make a wager with his wife without his say so. At first I thought he was joking and so did everyone else including his wife. That was until he accused me of an incestuous act with my father. Then came the insults like rapid fire. I initially tried to calm him down a reason with him but that seem to make him more upset. I can be a contrarian from time to time especially after 2 beers and put on the defensive. My mode of defense for this evening would be to not get upset and ask him why he was so mad, basic troll in other words. After 5 minutes or so of non-stop verbal jabs from him that were met with a reply of "you mad?" along with other variations of the phrase including asking him if he was born in MADhatten New York, he became solipsistic. His wife was mouthing "I'm so sorry" to me by this point. Well time to finish the last half of my 2nd beer and leave this now uncomfortable and awkward colorful discussion. I recognized he was, for lack of a better term "on one" and very drunk.

    I was now ignoring him for the final couple of minutes before we left. I should have just went but I was waiting for my father to cash out. It is at this point it got serious. He started taking my picture with his cell phone then started to text. He followed that up with a threat that his brothers were on their way down there and they were going to kick my a$$ in the parking lot. Once again I should have left earlier. The hairs stand up while thinking, seriously guy? Time to go. I tell my father who was kinda of out of earshot that we need to leave now, not when you can cash out an even 20, but now. I get up and make my way to him and Jack stands up. I have had enough of his antics and drunken rage and did not want this to escalate any more. Once again why didn't I leave earlier? We make eye contact and I wanted to convey to him that I did not want him to follow me and my father outside. So I bluffed. In hind site an awful decision and one I hope others learn from. I put on my "i'm serious as a heart attack face" and lifted my shirt a little to reveal the bottom of my holster which was empty but he did not know that. I told him to stay put and don't follow me and if he plans to jump me with his brothers still he better have more then 8 of them. It wasn't ment just to be clever or to come off as a tough guy, but I would not want to shoot anyone if I made it to my car and was attacked. Dad has a Handicap sticker and I was parked 2 feet from the door. Exit stage left.

    He had a moment of clarity and chose to stay put but then freaked out and started screaming that I was waving a gun around and how illegal it was. As I made it outside after a brief walk from the bar I could still hear him now calling for security. So many things could have gone wrong. I was lucky it worked out and made for a funny anecdote. I returned to the same casino a week or so later and was informed that I was not welcome because the bar back made a report of me waving and threatening a loyal patron. I then spoke to the head honcho of the night and she said I was more then welcome and that they reviewed the tapes and I was not seen with a firearm at all, let alone waving one around like a loon.

    Interesting tidbit, I found out from a friend who works security at a casino next door that the El Do called the other 2 casinos and informed then that a mad MWAG is on the prowl and to approach and confront me if I should be seen entering. He was laughing when he learned it was me and was thinking why would he confront someone armed when he only has a walkie talkie. I'm sure HPD was also called and thoughts of a swat team in a tank pulling me over at the barrel of 120 mm for something so stupid.

    The interesting thing is if I was concealed I would have left instantly. Maybe it is just me but I act a little differently when I am armed. Last thing I want is confrontation. The lesson here is do not be a simpleton like I was that evening and provoke a lunatic out of pure ego and well fun to be honest. My distrust for authority figures and ego prevented me from simply asking for help from the staff and handled it like a rational and reasonable person. 1 lamentable choice can cause a chain reaction of regret.

    How have you guys handled people who harass you in public? Did you act different if you were armed? I'm curious of others who have encountered drunks and how you handles it. thanks for listening and hopefully you were entertained.


    Signed,

    With a rueful smile Greengum.

  2. #2
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    Well, when I was drinking and I thought someone bumped me on purpose or insulted me or made any kind of threat, it would have been an automatic fight...why wait for a guy to pull out a knife?

    But that's just me. Unless you like knife wounds every once in a while, do not follow my lead.

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    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
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    My personal rule it to get away from A-holes as soon as possible. Just get up and leave. Even if he was locked up in a cage and harmless, I wouldn't want to listen to it.

    Now as for the brother's things, that's a great reason to have a gun and how drunk guy from a bar can turn into murder. I personally wouldn't recommend getting drunk (over. 10) in public, or at least without sufficient backup (like 4 or 5 guys with you), specifically so you CAN be armed.

    Showing him the holster may have saved your butt. Who cares if security comes? Tell them "I'm leaving" and keep walking to the exit. What are they going to do? Got a CCW? Great! Got an empty holster? Well, I guess the police can't accuse you of brandishing.

    You do what you have to do to stay alive and avoid a fight. There is nothing wrong or shameful about avoiding a confrontation or the way you do it. This A-hole wouldn't fight fair, so why should you?

    Based on that man's behavior, he needs to be taken out behind the woodshed and have that attitude beaten out of him as many times as necessary. People like that are disgusting human beings and I have no respect for them, drunk or sober. Frankly, people need an alcohol consumption license more than they need a CCW.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A pleasant interlude with your father turned into doing stupid things with stupid people - but you have already said that.

    It's hard to talk yourself into disengaging when you know you are in the right. And even harder when the other person is behaving like a jerk. Hardest of all is, in a situation like yours, to ask security to walk you out to your car so that nothing happens. (And if before doing that they decide to deal with "Jack" and his behavior all the better.)

    You probably already know this, but you need to work out with your father a signal that means "Get the eff out of Dodge right effing now!" You and he might do well to read "The Gift of Fear" and then talk about it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Fear-.../dp/0440226198 .

    Thanks for posting and doing most of the Monday Morning Quarterbacking yourself.

    stay safe.
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    The one, the ones that should read this, will not.

    • Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that he has something in common with his chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."
    • Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.
    • Too many details. If a person is lying they will add excessive details to make themselves sound more credible to their chosen victim.
    • Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: "Oh, I bet you're too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me." The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.
    • Loan Sharking. Giving unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.
    • The Unsolicited Promise. A promise to do (or not do) something when no such promise is asked for; this usually means that such a promise will be broken. For example: an unsolicited, "I promise I'll leave you alone after this," usually means the chosen victim will not be left alone. Similarly, an unsolicited "I promise I won't hurt you" usually means the person intends to hurt their chosen victim.
    • Discounting the Word "No". Refusing to accept rejection.

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    Let me see if I understand this....OP gets into a drunken argument with another *******. Then threatens this individual with deadly force. And then posts it as an amusing anecdote to share with other members. Did I get that right?

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    You didn't get it right. Op got into a drunken argument with another "patron". Patron threatened to have multiple people attack OP (Serious bodily injury or death). OP indicated he was armed and left. Finally he posted the story as a incident we could learn from or not.
    Last edited by CharleyCherokee; 10-12-2014 at 11:46 AM.
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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    You didn't get it right. Op got into a drunken argument with another "patron". Patron threatened to have multiple people attack OP (Serious bodily injury or death). OP indicated he was armed and left. Finally he posted the story as a incident we could learn from or not.
    You hit the nail on the head. This encounter makes me look dim-witted and unprepared and that is the point. Someone may learn something from this.

    Also I was not drunk. I consumed 2 12 ounce bud lights and also take into account I am a man of significant girth.

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    I want to thank you for posting this encounter knowing you had a good chance of negative responses. As you said many times should have left earlier. Easy to say now however the best solution in my opinion. And as you know showing an empty holster is a bone head move. I am sure no one has to say don’t do that again. Over the years like most I have received tactical training more often now because a Front Sight membership. Every instructor says never carry an empty gun because there is a very good chance your adversary gun will be ready to go. If you had an empty gun in the holster at least you could have thrown it at him.

    Someone posted, if I read it correctly, saying you being drunk threatening another person. Two beers for the average person does not put them over the BAC legal liming to carry a gun in Nevada.

    I was on a motorcycle got cut off by a well dressed professional looking female in a Mercedes. Pissed me off. Raced along to get next to her I was going to give her a piece of my mind followed up with some sign language. Just as I got along side of her and she knew I was on a mission, it hit me. WHAT THE HECK are you (me) doing. Road raging with a 3000 pound car while on a 900 pound bike, dumb point number 1, while open carrying a firearm at her eye level and she can clearly see, dumb point number 2. Next thought that hit me was hit the breaks you (me) dumb $h1t and get out of this issue. I can see it now, a 911 call there is a lunatic with a gun threaten me and riding aggressively on a motorcycle. It would be my word against hers.
    To answer one of your questions I do have a different frame of mind carrying. I go into a state of do what ever it takes not to escalate a bad issue.

    I am of the opinion a CCW is a highly advisable in Nevada it gives one the ability to carry in private business posting or having their no gun rule. I do not go into casinos because they do not want my gun. There is the rare occasion when I have family in town and end up in a casino and will CC. I will not be unarmed when legal.

    One of the pluses of OCing no need to point out one is armed to a would be idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    [*]Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: "Oh, I bet you're too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me." The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.
    My tendency is to agree with them. Not long ago, some guy said "Oh, you're some kind of tough guy, huh?" (because I had suggested that he carry the stuff he was buying at a garage sale, to keep other people like me from picking it up). I looked at him, and said "Well, YEAH . . ." as if it should have been obvious. His friends laughed at him for trying to inflate things, and being called on it.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garand_guy View Post
    (snip)

    Showing him the holster may have saved your butt. Who cares if security comes? Tell them "I'm leaving" and keep walking to the exit. What are they going to do? Got a CCW? Great! Got an empty holster? Well, I guess the police can't accuse you of brandishing.
    I don't know the law where the OP lives, but "brandishing" is such a poorly defined term in most jurisdictions that the gun doesn't even have to be seen to be considered "brandished." Here in Virginia we had an open carrier arrested for brandishing simply for pointing his FINGER at someone, and another convicted for simply moving his firearm from one place to another while in his car. The OP said he only uncovered the bottom of his holster to imply that he was armed, which I suspect in most states that have brandishing laws on the books might have led to his arrest.

    The OP understands and regrets his mistake and has posted it as an object lesson for the rest of us.
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    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
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    Strange how sometimes it's better to become a victim than it is to discourage violence.
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    At a minimum, you shouldn't have provoked a stranger. I'm all about banter in a sports setting, light hearted ribbings about whose team is better and the such, but once someone starts seeing red the fun is over. You acknowledge that, and while I don't think you needed to immediately leave, you acknowledge you could've handled the man better and that will help you in the future.

    Only other thought is the empty holster presentation. In typing this reply, I've deleted and retyped reasons why flashing a gun in a non-lethal situation is a bad idea, as well as why flashing an empty holster is a worse idea. Every thought I had comes out as belittling and I don't think you deserve that, so I'll just say I think it was a bad move. If you need to bring the gun into the situation, it better be because there's no other option and it's bang time.

    As far as how I act, I can tell you I'm way, way, way worse at handling public confrontations if I'm unarmed. Could be that if I'm unarmed it's probably because I'm un-sober (might be a factor lol), but I'm like you and being armed does play in the back of my mind every day. When encountering drunks, I'm very firm but polite and disengaging: "Hey man, we don't want trouble/leave us alone, have a nice night" as I walk away. That has actually made more drunks stop and apologize, as if they suddenly realize "oh, I must be acting like an ass," and friendly chat sometimes comes after. If I'm armed, and a heated discussion goes too far, my attitude is 99% disengage and escape because I don't want to be involved in a way that can be seen as escalating. Escape might simply mean go to another table in a sports bar, or it might mean leaving the area entirely if there's no reason for me to linger, it's a judgement call. Hope that helps.

    I will end by saying at the end of the day you went home, and nobody got hurt, so regardless of my criticisms you did good.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Strange how sometimes it's better to become a victim than it is to discourage violence.

    If the OP had just walked away at the first sign of trouble (He would not be a victim)..
    By choosing to stay the OP has become the accomplice in his victimization.
    If the OP had left ASAP it would have most likely eliminated the need to Brandish(an empty holster) to discourage violence.

    THX, to the OP for posting his incident for he and others to learn from.

    Now a serious question to the OP. Did you have your voice recording on your person and turned on during this incident?

    If the answer is no, why not?
    Last edited by Marco; 10-26-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I don't know the law where the OP lives, but "brandishing" is such a poorly defined term in most jurisdictions that the gun doesn't even have to be seen to be considered "brandished." Here in Virginia we had an open carrier arrested for brandishing simply for pointing his FINGER at someone, and another convicted for simply moving his firearm from one place to another while in his car. The OP said he only uncovered the bottom of his holster to imply that he was armed, which I suspect in most states that have brandishing laws on the books might have led to his arrest.

    The OP understands and regrets his mistake and has posted it as an object lesson for the rest of us.
    One case in Va on brandishing involved a guy pulling up his shirt and exposing a flare gun in his waistband. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1032714.pdf It's not the only bit of case law, but it is what one Commonwealth Attorney used to build up his case. For some reason the presiding judge held that an openly carried handgun, clearly visible in a holster on the defendant's belt, did not meet the elements of brandishing. Even if the complaining witness had never [before] been so scared in all his life.

    The point being that even when you don't do anything it is still possible to wind up getting charged with doing something. From the discussion the OP seems to understand that the less one does to escalate and/or continue the altercation the lower the risk of that happening.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    If the OP had just walked away at the first sign of trouble (He would not be a victim).. ...
    Still a victim of harassment and intimidation, but yes, your point is valid that we want to avoid escalation.
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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Still a victim of harassment and intimidation, but yes, your point is valid that we want to avoid escalation.

    Not really. The OP stayed and tried to defuse that is when the victimization started, imho.
    (probably based on how, what and when we each view harassment/intimidation starts)

    Then the beer kicked in and Jack now became pugnacious.

    Seems he was insulted that a man would make a wager with his wife without his say so. At first I thought he was joking and so did everyone else including his wife

    Here is where I would have made my exit.





    Avoidance is the point.
    Last edited by Marco; 10-26-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Interestingly, the OP is COMPLETELY AT FAULT.
    1. He was out with a holster on drinking and later he brandished (showing a holster (gun or not) is for all intents a brandish threat)
    2. He sat next to strangers and he and his father were flirting with her and her hubby was drinking heavily
    3. You didn't tell the whole story because he didn't just get mad about the bet, there was more to it.
    4. You should have left immediately. I don't buy the 'waiting for father' and at any rate YOU KNEW it was about to go ballistic. For $20?

    Also, this kind of thing smacks of a husband and wife TEAM where she acts provocatively and he gets mad and next thing you know you're offering money to calm things down.

    I can't believe you didn't see this coming.

    YOU. GOT. OFF. LUCKY.

    Don't do this again, we don't often get multiple chances to be a complete fool.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 10-26-2014 at 05:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    [ ... ] Don't do this again, we don't often get multiple chances to be a complete fool.
    We don't often get multiple chances to escape being a complete fool.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    We don't often get multiple chances to escape being a complete fool.
    LOL, i was typing quickly...

    Life is nothing but a series of chances to be a complete fool. One must choose those times carefully, young padewan.

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    Just to muddy the discussion with some facts. We don't "brandish" in Nevada. You will never be charged with brandishing.

    We do, however, have "Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner"

    NRS 202.320  Drawing deadly weapon in threatening manner.

    1.  Unless a greater penalty is provided in NRS 202.287, a person having, carrying or procuring from another person any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword cane, pistol, gun or other deadly weapon, who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense, or who in any manner unlawfully uses that weapon in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    2.  A sheriff, deputy sheriff, marshal, constable or other peace officer shall not be held to answer, under the provisions of subsection 1, for drawing or exhibiting any of the weapons mentioned therein while in the lawful discharge of his or her duties.

    [1911 C&P § 174; RL § 6439; NCL § 10121]—(NRS A 1967, 486; 1989, 1240)

    You would be hard pressed to be charged and convicted with this, as no deadly weapon was drawn or exhibited. A decent defense attorney would get this thrown out easily. Now threats against other persons, that's another story.
    Hoka hey

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    Regular Member De5115's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    Just to muddy the discussion with some facts. We don't "brandish" in Nevada. You will never be charged with brandishing.

    We do, however, have "Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner"
    Sure there is "brandishing."

    Under NRS 202.257  
    4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119, inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.

    Perhaps branding isn't a statute you are charged with, but it is included in the description of that NRS above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by De5115 View Post
    Sure there is "brandishing."

    Under NRS 202.257  
    4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119, inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.

    Perhaps branding isn't a statute you are charged with, but it is included in the description of that NRS above.
    That would be correct. It is a condition in the existing NRS. Also, in regards to the original post, would still not apply as a holster is not a firearm that can be aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 11-02-2014 at 06:07 PM.
    Hoka hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by De5115 View Post
    Sure there is "brandishing."

    Under NRS 202.257  
    4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119, inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.

    Perhaps branding isn't a statute you are charged with, but it is included in the description of that NRS above.
    That violation of brandishing only counts if subsection 1 of that law is broken, which would be handling the firearm while drunk.... So if you want to be uber technical, "Nevada has a "brandishing" law but it doesn't count unless you're shmammered."

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    You are also correct.

    I hear "brandishing this and brandishing that". I was actually told by a friend, while in my own travel trailer, on a camping trip, that I was brandishing, when I pulled my weapon out my holster to store it in my safe. Another friend wanted to see it. So I removed the magazine, cleared the chamber and verified it was unloaded with slide back and let him look at it. So I had to explain that it's not called brandishing, by NRS, because I wanted him to look up the NRS for himself. I also told him to look up brandishing and tell me what he found.

    I've also heard stories from other states, where a gun owner was in their private vehicle, pulled their firearm to store it, and were later arrested for "brandishing". Such B.S.

    My point was that we don't call it brandishing in Nevada. I know and you know, drawing or exhibiting a deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner, in its definition is the same thing as brandishing.

    And, yes, "brandish" is mentioned in NRS 202.257 Possession of firearm when under influence of alcohol, controlled substance or other intoxicating substance; administration of evidentiary test; penalty; forfeiture of firearm. In this case, brandishing is not the crime, it's just a reason to get your firearm forfeited. My opinion is, you should just also be charged with Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner.

    The points I was making:

    1. It's not called brandishing in NRS. Simply because if you look up brandishing in our NRS you won't find it, other than the reference in another NRS for possession of a firearm under the influence... as an add on for forfeiture of firearm.

    If you brandish a weapon, you won't get charged with "Brandishing". You'll get charged with "Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner."


    2. You have to meet the requirements defined in the NRS to be charged with "Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner." (in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense)


    3. The original poster displayed an empty holster. A holster is not a deadly weapon and therefore can not be used to charge with "Drawing a deadly weapon in a threatening manner" or brandishing for that matter.


    Sorry if you thought that I was saying that waving a firearm around in an angry manner is acceptable in Nevada. That's not what I was saying at all.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 11-08-2014 at 02:18 AM.
    Hoka hey

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