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Thread: Finally living here in the American West

  1. #1
    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    Finally living here in the American West

    No more Lake County (Chicago far north suburbs) Illinois. As of Fri 03 Oct I live in the beautiful Greater Salt Lake metro area in the far south suburb of Provo right next to Provo Towne Centre Mall. Migosh Utah is beautiful and I have been open carrying several days with 3 positive reactions and one negative reaction, after open carrying several times through the mall next to my house, security informed me of no guns allowed in the mall, not even concealed, they were polite, told them I could not see any gunbuster signs and they said they're "on the side." You would think they would put them on the front right next to the 25ft smoking distance restriction from the building sign! If I decide to enter the mall ever again they won't know if I'm concealed, maybe I just might stay out on principle. Wonder if University Mall in Orem is also antigun or neutral?

    BTW is there anyone from here that is a moderator or administrator on http://utahconcealedcarry.com ? I registered over a month ago under the same screenname I use here and no one got back to me. I try to log in and it says "inactive user" and to contact an administrator which I can't do if I'm not a member. hopefully someone can fix this so I can be an active member there.
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    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican “IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

  2. #2
    Regular Member twright's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=after open carrying several times through the mall next to my house, security informed me of no guns allowed in the mall, not even concealed, they were polite, told them I could not see any gunbuster signs and they said they're "on the side."[/QUOTE]

    Welcome to Utah.
    Just in case you didn't know, "No Weapons" signs do not carry the force of law in Utah. If they became aware that you were concealing, they can only ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it becomes trespassing. Happy carrying.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twright View Post
    Welcome to Utah.
    Just in case you didn't know, "No Weapons" signs do not carry the force of law in Utah. If they became aware that you were concealing, they can only ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it becomes trespassing. Happy carrying.
    Good info, put me down as a +1! Pax...
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  4. #4
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Cool Welcome to Utah

    Let me add my "Welcome to Utah". You will find the laws regarding firearms in Utah to be much more sensible than those in a majority of other States. Open carry is legal without a permit provided the firearm is "Utah Unloaded" (no round in the chamber and two actions to fire). Open carry is fully legal when the firearm is fully loaded if you have a permit. Utah is a much more gun-friendly place than Lake County, Ill-noise.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  5. #5
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    RE: Finally living in the American West

    We are very glad to have you here with us, and very happy for you that you've been able to escape from ChicagoLand.... Welcome back to the land of the Free.

    You've already received some good advice from some of the other carriers here. I carry openly the majority of the time, and the only times that I don't are into places, like the mall that you mentioned, that may have a corporate policy that is restrictive to the exercise of our 2nd Amendment rights. I would suggest that you do as the others have pointed out; just conceal carry when needed. I have two holsters that I carry with me; my Serpa for OC, and a very nice soft holster for concealed/IWB carrying called a Sticky Holster. You might want to check it out. I really love the Sticky for the times when I CC.

    Welcome to Utah!!!
    Last edited by RemohGramps; 10-13-2014 at 08:42 PM.


    MY GUIDING PRINCIPLES
    • As a citizen in this Constitutional Republic, in order to maximize my freedom, I do assert my rights to act and think to maintain my freedom of life, liberty and property, and allow other citizens the same rights.
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  6. #6
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    Welcome to Utah. Glad to see you escape from Illinois.

    Just a couple of thoughts about a couple of topics covered thus far.

    First, OC in Utah. Near as I can tell, everything written thus far is accurate. Just remember that the federal gun free school zone law is still in effect and covers a distance of 1000 feet (as the crow flies) from the edge of school property. In most urban areas of Utah it is effectively impossible (ie entirely impractical) to try to legally OC in public without having a Utah permit to carry. We have a lot of schools and the fact that there is a freeway or river between you and the school makes no difference to the federal law.

    Secondly, regarding anti-gun businesses. There are a couple of trains of thought on this one. I tend to go with Heinlein's oft-quoted, "An armed society is a polite society." When dealing with government/public property, I demand that my rights be respected. But when dealing with someone else's private property, including businesses open the public, I think it is only polite to respect their wishes and, at the very least, not make them aware if I have a gun (or any other item) that may offend or scare the owner. In other words, there are times when carrying concealed or even casually concealed has great benefit for both me and those around me.

    A second train of thought is that we should not contribute to the profit margins of businesses that are hostile to our rights. Here, I personally draw a distinction between a business that is actively hostile to my rights and spends some of their profit attacking me, and a business that simply doesn't want guns (visibly) in their establishment but that that doesn't do anything to pass laws or otherwise attack my rights. I avoid contributing to the bottom line of a business that actively attacks my rights. For a business that is neutral politically but simply doesn't want to see my gun on their property, I avail myself of concealed carry so as to avoid giving offense needlessly.

    A third train of thought holds that the lawful possession of a firearm should receive as much protection as color of skin, religious affiliation, etc, and so we must agitate for recognition of our rights. I understand, but at the current time do not subscribe to this belief. I don't think we have nor are likely to get the social support needed to effect real change through some kind of civil disobedience. I think civil disobedience with a gun is going to be see as fundamentally different than without a gun. And my personal view is that I should afford others the same respect to control their property as I want for mine.

    Anyway, all the best.

    Charles

  7. #7
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Charles makes a great point in reminding all of us that the Federal Laws are still out there. No carry in a Federal Gun-Free school zone (1,000 feet as the crow flies) without a permit, and as Charles has aptly pointed out, that is nearly impossible in the urban parts of the Salt Lake valley.

    No carry in any Federal Facility, no carry in a Post Office, no carry in the secure parts of a correctional facility or police station or mental health facility or the secure part of an airport. No carry in Court Houses.

    UT law prohibits open or concealed carry in a "house of worship" that has published their policy and informed UT BCI (who posts it on their website). To date, only the LDS Church has declared their "houses of worship" to be gun-free. (Carry in Temple Square is OK, but not in the Temple itself or the Tabernacle. No carry in a Ward House or Stake House.) That being said, if you visit Temple Square while armed, I recommend concealed carry so as to not scare the Missionaries. No Guns signs do not have the force of law in UT, but if the owner of private property learns that you are armed, he may ask you to leave. If you to not promptly comply, you are guilty of trespassing.

    You may encounter signage at Utah Gun Shows that asks you to unload and allow employees to secure your firearm (usually with a tie-wrap through the barrel). This is a request only as gun shows are typically held at public venues. Thus, compliance is voluntary.

    UT is unique in allowing carry in school zones, even within a school, if you have a permit. Federal law states that the permit must have been issued in the State in which the school is located, but UT recognizes all permits from any State as being equal to a UT Permit. This discrepancy has never been adjudged in a court, so I recommend having a UT permit.

    I know this is an open carry forum, but I personally recommend all those who would carry to get a UT permit. It just makes everyday carrying so much easier.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  8. #8
    State Researcher
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    UT law prohibits open or concealed carry in a "house of worship" that has published their policy and informed UT BCI (who posts it on their website). To date, only the LDS Church has declared their "houses of worship" to be gun-free. (Carry in Temple Square is OK, but not in the Temple itself or the Tabernacle. No carry in a Ward House or Stake House.) That being said, if you visit Temple Square while armed, I recommend concealed carry so as to not scare the Missionaries.

    Jim,

    Great note on recommended mode of carry in certain locations where carry is legal, but may be unwanted or cause concern.

    Just one small correction. Utah law prohibits non-LEOs from carrying guns into any church that has "given notice". There are several ways a church can give notice and thus invoke the gun ban.

    Reasonable signage at the church is enough to give notice and invoke the law. Unlike some other States, there is no statutory requirements on the signage language, size, etc. I expect that standard "reasonable man" kind of tests would apply. But not much beyond that. "You are welcome to join us; but your gun is not welcome" would qualify. So too would a gun "ghostbuster" sign.

    Notice printed in the church program is sufficient and does present a certain problem. You are likely to already be inside when you get the program. In my mind, upon being notified, there is no legal choice but to leave as soon as possible to remove the gun from the building.

    Personal notice from a church official (Priest, deacon, vicar, sexton, etc). If someone with authority over the building personally tells you that guns are not permitted, they have invoked the law and you need to keep your gun out or remove it post haste.

    And finally, there is the BCI route of "giving notice." Under this route, a church must give a general "public notice" annually in a newspaper of general circulation, and then notify BCI. BCI keeps a list on their web page. Permit holders are advised to keep up to date on this list so as to avoid violating the law by taking their guns into a church which has given notice and invoked the law via this method.

    Last I checked,two churches were using the BCI web pagenotification method: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (ie the LDS or Mormon church), and the United Church of Christ. The notice covers all LDS houses of worship (churches, temples, tabernacles) in the State.

    Over the years I've seen or heard of a couple of churches posting signs or printing something in their bulletin. I can imagine that OC into some other churches would garner a personal request to at least cover up, perhaps even take the gun out entirely.

    I've also heard of one or two rural churches that have specifically invited congregants and visitors to carry their guns.

    The penalty for violation is an infraction. First time offense is generally not considered cause to revoke a permit.

    The same law, except the BCI notification option, exists for private residences. If your neighbor posts a sign (nobody does) or tells you personally that he doesn't want you to carry a gun into his home, he has invoked the law and you can be popped for an infraction for carrying an otherwise legal gun into his home. Private residences don't have the option of the BCI web page notification.

    In both cases of houses of worship and private residences, the legal ban applies only to the interior of the building. Parking lots, driveways, yards, and grounds are not covered. So perfectly legal to leave your gun in your car (good idea to secure the gun) in the church parking lot or neighbor's driveway while your person is inside the building.

    I'm not aware of any prosecutions or convictions under this law which I think speaks to the general law-abidingness and courtesy of Utah's permit holders. If someone doesn't want me to bring a gun into their church or home, I feel compelled (regardless of what the law may say) to honor that request one way or another. Simply not visiting that location is an easy way to assure I never take a gun in. Leaving my gun at home, or secured in my car outside is another option.

    Charles

  9. #9
    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    Thanks

    Thank you to all of you so far who have replied and given me good info. I live right next to Provo Towne Center Mall, yep I live here in the hood on the mean streets of the southside of Provo! So are there any others both LDS and non LDS living here in Provo or neighboring Orem and Springville who open carry? I'd like to also encourage some of the elders who are gun enthusiasts in my elders quorum to open carry as I get to know them in the Freedom 1st Ward. I have been open carrying many times for several days since I first moved here Fri 03 Oct, lots of exposure and I have yet to see one single open carrier here in the Utah Valley. We need to make open carry go viral! I have my Utah permit in case I need to conceal once in a while, but I open carry as much as possible everywhere.

    Also I am still asking is there anyone here that is an administrator or moderator for Utah Concealed Carry forum? Still can't get my membership to the forum resolved as I would like to take part in their open carry forum. My phone number is 1-800-808-5494 to my cellph.

    Dion Wood
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    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican “IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

  10. #10
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Finally living here in the American West

    Dion - posting your phone # here is a bad idea. Simply ask if someone can help, when they say yes, send it via a private message (PM). There are many that stalk this site including mad mommies against legal self defense. They can be quite militant, to the point of suggesting OCers be killed!

    Now onto happy thoughts, you moved to one of the most free states in the U.S.A. Cool! Now if we could just get the best of Utah law & the best of AZ (constitutional carry) together in one state (call it Utah-Zona or Ari-Utah) life would be near perfect.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-19-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Hi Charles,

    I stand corrected. I took my UT Instructor renewal in November of 2013 and at that time the LDS Church was the only one mentioned by BCI as forbidding carry, but after reading your post I went to BCI's website and see the United Church of Christ there now. Thanks for the update.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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