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Thread: "Criminals Will Attack Open Carriers First" = B.S.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Criminals Will Attack Open Carriers First" = B.S.

    Excerpted from The Armed Criminal in America:
    Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that “A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;” 74% agreed that “One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot.”

    A 57% majority agreed that “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” In asking felons what they personally thought about while committing crimes, 34% indicated that they thought about getting “shot at by police” or “shot by victim.”

    Of course, it is hard to determine if these numbers are accurate. Criminals lie, and the desire to "look tough" and appear fearless very likely suppressed the numbers. I suspect the actual percentages to be much higher.

    ©2014 by Dean Weingarten:
    Available online for about $3.
    cf Page 27 of this PDF
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-14-2014 at 05:56 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It's human nature to not want to get shot, with a very small percentage of exceptions. And then you get back to concealed carriers look just like victims, unless they conceal so poorly that everyone knows they have a gun.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It's human nature to not want to get shot, with a very small percentage of exceptions. And then you get back to concealed carriers look just like victims, unless they conceal so poorly that everyone knows they have a gun.
    But but but tactical advantage

    Element of surprise

    They can draw just as fast

    Doesn't draw any unwanted attention

    Etc

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Then why do banks, liquor stores etc all hire armed guard that openly carry?

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    Then why do banks, liquor stores etc all hire armed guard that openly carry?
    You mean you guys don't know? Those guards are there to attract the bullets and attention of would-be robbers while the REAL guards (who are CCing and pretending to be in hysterics while cowering behind the desks) get the element of super tactical surprise on the bad guys.

    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 10-14-2014 at 07:24 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Of course, it is hard to determine if these numbers are accurate. Criminals lie, and the desire to "look tough" and appear fearless very likely suppressed the numbers. I suspect the actual percentages to be much higher.
    Armchair pop-psychology, and exactly the reason why statistical social "sciences" tend to be (are?) so worthless.

    Maybe they want to look meek before those who can potentially influence parole hearings, and so under-report their willingness to risk police/victim gunfire.

    That said, my intuition tells me that most criminals seek easy targets.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    You mean you guys don't know? Those guards are there to attract the bullets and attention of would-be robbers while the REAL guards (who are CCing and pretending to be in hysterics while cowering behind the desks) get the element of super tactical surprise on the bad guys.

    Ooooooooohhhhh now I know!

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    Then why do banks, liquor stores etc all hire armed guard that openly carry?
    You can get on YouTube and see plenty of security guards get screwed over that oc.

    I seen one at a jewelry store that was holding a shotgun, probably in South America, they walked up on him like normal guys going in the door, then whipped out a gun shot him, disarmed him, robbed the place and left.

    So OC'img doesn't necessarily make you more safe or scare off armed robbers.

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Looks like it was Asia

    He had a shotgun slung over his shoulder.

    http://youtu.be/YR7SleSijsM

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    I saw that this was posted on another forum, and it sums up my opinions very nicely. He especially goes into the myth of "defensive surprise", pointing out that if you're on defense, you're the one who has been surprised already.

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

    Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

    Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-op...ries-gunpoint/

    You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

    As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

    All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

    In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

    Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

    Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-op...ries-gunpoint/

    You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

    As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

    All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

    In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
    Are you a big "element of surprise" believer?

    You're talking about security guards and added it to ONE case that made the news. That has a few shady details, but even if we take it at face value, it's ONE case.

    For the average person OC'ing is safe and if it was really making targets out of us then the news would trumpet that as a reason to outlaw OC.

    The most dangerous situation an OC'er is likely to be involved in is with an ignorant cop.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Just want to remind all of you that don't know, most forum members are already aware, I have Wilmington bridges for sale. And this month only I have prime real estate in China for sale.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Just want to remind all of you that don't know, most forum members are already aware, I have Wilmington bridges for sale. And this month only I have prime real estate in China for sale.
    If you sell your bridge what will you live under?

    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    If you sell your bridge what will you live under?

    The roof of my house. Just be thankful I am not selling your rock.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-op...ries-gunpoint/

    You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.
    i think it's pretty obvious that was a straw purchase and a way to cover his tracks. There's a lot of info there that doesnt make any sense. At any rate, I do expect OCing to scare off the majority of would be attackers. the vast majority would much rather find an easier target.

    I can just as easily show you a situation where OC by two gentleman did in fact deter several armed robbers: http://www.examiner.com/article/open...bbery-kennesaw


    a few months ago i was at a gas station after a movie filling up. It was around midnight and i had my g17 on my side. two less than reputable looking guys started to approach me and say "what's up?", i didn't have a good feeling and said, just heading home guys and rested my hand on the G17 while peering over my shoulder. I saw a third guy milling around about 20' in the background. They looked down at the glock and mumbled something then made a motion i assumed was for the guy behind me. I have no doubt had i been CCing, it would have been next to impossible to deter those guys without drawing my weapon.

    I don't believe OC is the only way to carry, there are times for nicer dinners, or crowded environments when i conceal but most of the time, i much prefer OC. You still have to have very good situational awareness no matter if you OC or CC. Neither will save you if you aren't aware of what's going on around you.

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    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.

    Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.

    Another recent example: http://bearingarms.com/ill-taking-op...ries-gunpoint/

    You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.

    As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.

    All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.

    In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
    Obviously you are new here, I'm just going to sit back and watch this one...
    We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Now I'm not saying OC'ing specifically makes you a target in every instance, but in some cases, it is a disadvantage.
    You mean one case. In Asia. And it was a security guard. Right. Totally relevant.

    Like an armed security guard. If I'm going to rob the place he protects, he is my first target to either kill or detain and disarm. Especially if it is a planned robbery such as a jewelry store.
    A security guard guarding a jewelry store - again, horrible red herring.

    This story has been torn to shreds here. I would find the thread for you, but it's a fairly simple search. The story reeks of BS.

    You just can't expect oc'ing to scare off armed robbers.
    Yes I can.

    As the public arms itself, you have to expect some criminals are going to plan enough ahead to still hold you up and do their crime anyway.
    They can surely try. They'll get a double tap to the chest and one to the dome as a result of my heightened situational awareness whilst open carrying, however. You'll find that most of us are quite well practiced and not just making a political statement or showing off.

    All you have to do is put yourself on the other side and think for a second how you'd sneak up and rob an oc'er of his valuables and gun.
    If you can honestly say that if you were a criminal you would specifically target an armed victim, I fear for your safety and the safety of those around you.

    In some cases, a thief might see a gun as a good score since a lot of people carry plastic instead of cash and the average handgun costs $400-$600 easy.
    Again, good luck buddy. Double tap to the chest and one to the dome. Hope it's worth it! Believe it or not, some criminals actually value their lives.
    Last edited by The Truth; 10-15-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonie View Post
    Obviously you are new here, I'm just going to sit back and watch this one...
    I'll bring the popcorn!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Looks like it was Asia

    He had a shotgun slung over his shoulder.

    http://youtu.be/YR7SleSijsM
    Whereas if he had been concealing the shotgun, the element of surprise would have saved him.

    But seriously, totally different threat model for the guard, different risk/reward analysis for the criminals.

    I'm not posting myself on dark street corners next to piles of cash, giving people opportunity to prepare a crew and tactics for a successful robbery. I'm doing the things I ordinarily do.

    With this in mind, and with regard to this hypothetical hardcore criminal you have in mind, you're talking about a person who A: would casually murder in public for $400 in property, and B: would do so with a fair chance of getting killed himself. I ask you: how has this person not already been going on a killing spree since he woke up this morning? I'm the first person he saw with $400 worth of property, all day? Why aren't cops routinely being pre-emptively shot just to have their guns stolen? And, if we are talking about a guy on a killing spree, how am I better off having to fumble my gun out of concealment?

    Think, man. Think!
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-15-2014 at 06:42 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    What it boils down to

    I can only speak for myself but I am sure others here will chime in and agree.

    IT IS PERSONAL CHOICE!

    I really do not care what excuse or claims of another person and their preferred carry. I do not answer to some hero on the internet, and I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO ANSWER TO ME.

    If you(general you) wish to carry concealed by all means carry concealed. If you want to not carry by all means do not carry. If you want you can even open carry. What you cannot do is control others, they will make fun of you. You are powerless as to the personal choices that others decide to make, whether good or bad.

    It is called liberty.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernymac View Post
    I'll bring the popcorn!
    I'll make the iced tea, and bring the bandaids.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Are you a big "element of surprise" believer?

    You're talking about security guards and added it to ONE case that made the news. That has a few shady details, but even if we take it at face value, it's ONE case.

    For the average person OC'ing is safe and if it was really making targets out of us then the news would trumpet that as a reason to outlaw OC.

    The most dangerous situation an OC'er is likely to be involved in is with an ignorant cop.
    I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

    But I gave you guys one example each of the most recent cases I've come across; a security guard getting killed while he has a 12ga OCing and another civilian carrying open that got robbed specifically for his gun.

    If those aren't enough, google more for yourself. There are more cases of OC'ers getting robbed and killed out there. For example, cops OC and get killed all the time as well, so google them, too. But you're free to draw your own conclusions from these realities; it makes no difference to me.

    But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

    You just never know, but hope you never have to find out.

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

    But I gave you guys one example each of the most recent cases I've come across; a security guard getting killed while he has a 12ga OCing and another civilian carrying open that got robbed specifically for his gun.

    If those aren't enough, google more for yourself. There are more cases of OC'ers getting robbed and killed out there. For example, cops OC and get killed all the time as well, so google them, too. But you're free to draw your own conclusions from these realities; it makes no difference to me.

    But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

    You just never know, but hope you never have to find out.
    That's a good lad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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