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"Criminals Will Attack Open Carriers First" = B.S.

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WalkingWolf

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What it boils down to

I can only speak for myself but I am sure others here will chime in and agree.

IT IS PERSONAL CHOICE!

I really do not care what excuse or claims of another person and their preferred carry. I do not answer to some hero on the internet, and I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO ANSWER TO ME.

If you(general you) wish to carry concealed by all means carry concealed. If you want to not carry by all means do not carry. If you want you can even open carry. What you cannot do is control others, they will make fun of you. You are powerless as to the personal choices that others decide to make, whether good or bad.

It is called liberty.
 

JohnC76

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Are you a big "element of surprise" believer?

You're talking about security guards and added it to ONE case that made the news. That has a few shady details, but even if we take it at face value, it's ONE case.

For the average person OC'ing is safe and if it was really making targets out of us then the news would trumpet that as a reason to outlaw OC.

The most dangerous situation an OC'er is likely to be involved in is with an ignorant cop.

I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

But I gave you guys one example each of the most recent cases I've come across; a security guard getting killed while he has a 12ga OCing and another civilian carrying open that got robbed specifically for his gun.

If those aren't enough, google more for yourself. There are more cases of OC'ers getting robbed and killed out there. For example, cops OC and get killed all the time as well, so google them, too. But you're free to draw your own conclusions from these realities; it makes no difference to me. :cool:

But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

You just never know, but hope you never have to find out. :)
 

The Truth

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I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

But I gave you guys one example each of the most recent cases I've come across; a security guard getting killed while he has a 12ga OCing and another civilian carrying open that got robbed specifically for his gun.

If those aren't enough, google more for yourself. There are more cases of OC'ers getting robbed and killed out there. For example, cops OC and get killed all the time as well, so google them, too. But you're free to draw your own conclusions from these realities; it makes no difference to me. :cool:

But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

You just never know, but hope you never have to find out. :)

That's a good lad.
 

WalkingWolf

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Hopefully Grapeshot shows up on this one. IIRC this was the guy that was charged with filing a false police report.

Even if not, who cares? I certainly I am not going to lose sleep or stop OCing over it. I just don't care.
 

The Truth

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[video=youtube;zx_YUO4SzcY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY[/video]

Seems to me you are arguing. I thought you said you weren't arguing.

I'm going to use the same argument that I used against the last guy that tried to dissuade people from OCing.

Seat belts don't always save lives, so why wear one at all?
 
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WalkingWolf

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Seems to me you are arguing. I thought you said you weren't arguing.

I'm going to use the same argument that I used against the last guy that tried to dissuade people from OCing.

Seat belts don't always save lives, so why wear one at all?

I should feel sorry for people who are so wrapped up in what other people do~~But I don't:lol:
 

Rusty Young Man

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I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't have a belief that one is more safe than the other when carrying concealed or open.

But I gave you guys one example each of the most recent cases I've come across; a security guard getting killed while he has a 12ga OCing and another civilian carrying open that got robbed specifically for his gun.

If those aren't enough, google more for yourself. There are more cases of OC'ers getting robbed and killed out there. For example, cops OC and get killed all the time as well, so google them, too. But you're free to draw your own conclusions from these realities; it makes no difference to me. :cool:

But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

You just never know, but hope you never have to find out. :)

Here's a copy & paste of a post I made on another forum:

I will preface this by saying "I speak only for myself":
There have been more than several documented instances where the criminal simply runs away when confronted by an armed citizen; shots are not always fired by the armed citizen. Criminals do not benefit from extended hiests/attacks since it increases the likelihood of their arrest as it gives LEOs time to arrive, and in the case of a firefight with armed citizens or armed LEOs (collectively termed "armed resistance"), also increases the chances of injury or death.
Unless you have been specifically targeted to make a point (politicians fall into this category) or to silence you (people in the Witness Protection Program fall into this category), the criminal (an opportunist) is searching out the easiest, most defenseless, least aware target.

Violent criminals are predators of opportunity, not soldiers with an "at all costs" mentality (though I will concede that some exceptions do occur sparingly*). The common criminal is looking for an easy target for an easy score, not an unfavorable cost-benefit ratio. If you are visibly armed, the would-be predator KNOWS a clear and present danger to his/her life exists should you be targeted for whatever benefit (monetary, proprietary, or carnal) you have to offer; it is quite difficult to ignore the possibility of your death if the target has the ability to sling lead at deadly speeds in your direction.
This is the same reason predators in nature normally stalk and attack the sick, wounded, elderly, and small-framed creatures (collectively: easy prey) instead of the healthy, strong, youthful, visibly armed/dangerous creatures (collectively: hard targets).


*I will point out that criminals intent on being immortalized by the media do not conform to the argument I present here; then again, the argument dealt with the common criminal, not rampage shooters, but I digress.
 

Grapeshot

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How many times must we beat this poor horse?

OC is an effective deterrent - one doesn't look like the typical victim.....and the presentation is both quicker and easier.

While there have been a few purported incidents - all proved to be less than valid - the numerical ratio between OCers becoming victims and their counterpart CCers is likely similar to .000001%.

Choose your method of carry based on your preferred results. I have done precisely that.
 

WalkingWolf

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How many times must we beat this poor horse?

OC is an effective deterrent - one doesn't look like the typical victim.....and the presentation is both quicker and easier.

While there have been a few purported incidents - all proved to be less than valid - the numerical ratio between OCers becoming victims and their counterpart CCers is likely similar to .000001%.

Choose your method of carry based on your preferred results. I have done precisely that.

Come on Grape you know we have to do this every six months.:uhoh:
 

marshaul

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But to be clear, what I was simply pointing out, if you read my post, was that JUST BECAUSE you open carry, doesn't necessarily mean every criminal is going to avoid you. Some may plan or surprise you when they whip out their concealed weapon to rob you and take your gun.

None of us think it's a magic talisman. What we're saying is that your objections are poorly thought-out.

Sure. Some criminal could decide to target me for my gun. It's probably happened before (though none of the cases you've submitted so far are kosher).

But you know what's a lot more common than hardened, dedicated, die-hard criminals picking the hardest target around for a meager reward at an immense of risk? You guessed it: lazy, opportunistic criminals looking for the easiest mark around so they can make a quick buck while minimizing risk.

So, you say I make myself a target to the one die-hard criminal by OCing. Perhaps. But then, you make yourself a target to the hundreds of opportunistic criminals by CCing and, thereby, presenting an apparently unarmed and (therefore) soft target.

Which is the greater risk? Well, the stakes are life-or-death either way, aren't they? And the risk you, the CCer, assume is numerically more prevalent. This is easy to demonstrate: you search high and low to find one or two - probably BS - stories of OCers robbed, but I could with trivial effort present dozens of cases of CCers being robbed (as you well know). By logic no less rigorous than yours, these CCers have all been "targeted" "for" being (apparently) unarmed, and therefore "for" concealing a firearm they could have worn openly.

And, once a criminal does decide he likes you, by the time your concealed weapon has a chance to deter him you've been backed into a corner and left with little choice but to shoot the guy.

You wanna share anecdotes? Remember that CCer who killed some 10 year old kid who tried to rob him with an airsoft gun? Justified, sure, but don't you think that CCer would have preferred to not shoot a 10-year-old (however justified)? And don't you suspect that that 10-year-old would have not tried to rob, using his toy, someone he knew to have a real gun?

Or, what about those guys who planned to rob a Waffle House down in GA, only to be deterred by a couple customers carrying handguns? The criminals were themselves armed, as we learned when they were arrested out back. What were they doing, you ask, hanging around behind the Waffle House with guns and criminal intent? That's right: waiting for the armed citizens to leave. How do you imagine that would have played out had the customers been concealed carrying? I figure a gunfight, at best.

Life is risk. Pick your risk, accept the consequences. From where I sit, though, the risk you've chosen seems like the greater one.
 
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The Truth

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None of us think it's a magic talisman. What we're saying is that your objections are poorly thought-out.

Sure. Some criminal could decide to target me for my gun. It's probably happened before (though none of the cases you've submitted so far are kosher).

But you know what's a lot more common than hardened, dedicated, die-hard criminals picking the hardest target around for a meager reward at an immense of risk? You guessed it: lazy, opportunistic criminals looking for the easiest mark around so they can make a quick buck while minimizing risk.

So, you say I make myself a target to the one die-hard criminal for OCing. Perhaps. But then, you make yourself a target to the hundreds of opportunistic criminals by CCing and, thereby, presenting an apparently unarmed and (therefore) soft target.

Which is the greater risk? Well, the stakes are life-or-death either way, aren't they? And the risk you, the CCer, assume is numerically more prevalent. This is easy to demonstrate: you search high and low to find one or two - probably BS - stories of OCers robbed, but I could with trivial effort present dozens of cases of CCers being robbed (as you well know). By logic no less rigorous than yours, these CCers have all been "targeted" "for" being (apparently) unarmed, and therefore "for" concealing a firearm they could have worn openly.

And, once a criminal does decide he likes you, by the time your concealed weapon has a chance to deter him you've been backed into a corner and left with little choice but to shoot the guy.

You wanna share anecdotes? Remember that CCer who killed some 10 year old kid who tried to rob him with an airsoft gun? Justified, sure, but don't you think that CCer would have preferred to not shoot a 10-year-old (however justified)? And don't you think that 10-year-old would have not tried to rob, using his toy, someone he knows to have a real gun?

Life is risk. Pick your risk, accept the consequences. From where I sit, though, yours seems like the greater.

+1 flawless logic

That requirement was dropped from my renewal contract. I now have the option of shaking my head and walking away.


HAHAH!
 

JohnC76

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Seems to me you are arguing. I thought you said you weren't arguing.

I'm going to use the same argument that I used against the last guy that tried to dissuade people from OCing.

Seat belts don't always save lives, so why wear one at all?

One example wasn't good enough for someone here, so I decided to help the lazies who won't good for the other side of the subject and post one more. :cool:

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from open carrying. Go back and read my posts. I stated that clearly. I don't care how you carry. It's your right and it doesn't bother me one way or another.
 

JohnC76

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a few months ago i was at a gas station after a movie filling up. It was around midnight and i had my g17 on my side. two less than reputable looking guys started to approach me and say "what's up?", i didn't have a good feeling and said, just heading home guys and rested my hand on the G17 while peering over my shoulder. I saw a third guy milling around about 20' in the background. They looked down at the glock and mumbled something then made a motion i assumed was for the guy behind me. I have no doubt had i been CCing, it would have been next to impossible to deter those guys without drawing my weapon.

You don't think a CC'er couldn't reach for his or her weapon and put a hand on their it to have the same effect? Aside from that, OC'ing didn't deter your attackers right off either.

I'm not attacking you. What you did worked in your situation. But I think the outcome would be the same for a CC'er. That's all I'm trying to say. :)

Cooler months, I carry a full size Glock 21 45acp, or FN Five-seveN OWB covered by my jacket, so slinging it back and sticking a hand on the gun would be easy. On the same token, I wear my Springfield XDs 45acp in a Tagua 4 in 1 OWB with my shirt pulled over it in the summer. It's not hard for me to get my hand on my gun quickly at all.
 

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marshaul

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Cooler months, I carry a full size Glock 21 45acp, or FN Five-seveN OWB covered by my jacket, so slinging it back and sticking a hand on the gun would be easy. On the same token, I wear my Springfield XDs 45acp in a Tagua 4 in 1 OWB with my shirt pulled over it in the summer. It's not hard for me to get my hand on my gun quickly at all.

Of course your maneuver, while undeniably cool, pretty much means you have to go around slinging your jacket back and grabbing your gun at anyone who looks remotely suspicious in order to have the same effect as OC.

Recent history has shown that this provides a serious potential to net you a brandishing or assault charge (depending on the state).
 
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Grapeshot

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One example wasn't good enough for someone here, so I decided to help the lazies who won't good for the other side of the subject and post one more. :cool:

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from open carrying. Go back and read my posts. I stated that clearly. I don't care how you carry. It's your right and it doesn't bother me one way or another.

Agreed that we each make our own choices based on personal evaluations/requirements.

That said, a discussion pointing out alleged weakness in OCing puts one directly in the room with the CC only crowd = provocateur.

First and foremost, this is an OC forum, we've had lots of practice responding to "the other side" of the self-defense coin.
 
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