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Thread: NAGR vs NRA -- Interesting Article Comparing the Two

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    NAGR vs NRA -- Interesting Article Comparing the Two

    Link.

    Excerpt:

    Budgets: Despite the much larger budget of the NRA, NAGR in 2013 started off the year by spending $1.9 million lobbying for gun rights, as compared to the $700,000 spent by the NRA, according to USA Today. By the end of 2013, NAGR spent $6.76 million to the NRA’s $3.41 million, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

    It only gets more interesting from then on.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    The article seems to imply that the NAGR spends all its $$ complaining about the NRA...lol

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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Is NAGR even legit?

    All they ever did was spam me with "donate now or the UN treaty will be signed and then gun rights are over" or some similar BS.

    But I never seen or heard them fight for any 2A rights.

    Id go with NRA, GOA, NFAFA, etc., but skeptical enough of NAGR that I don't give to them.

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    NAGR is not in the business of dispensations from infringements of the Second Amendment.

    12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I have not given them any money, but I do support them in the fight and I may, depending on my budget. What I am waiting for is a organization to fight for the very achievable victory of nationwide unlicensed open carry. Which SCOTUS has made reference to OC, but nobody has taken them up on it.

    Once constitutional carry nationwide is established all the other infringements will fall in time.

    From Heller

    In Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause, in continuity with the English right:

    “The right of the whole people, old and young, men,
    women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and
    bear arms of every description, and not such merely as
    are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed,
    or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and
    all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing
    up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally
    necessary to the security of a free State. Our
    opinion is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant
    to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes
    this right, originally belonging to our forefathers,
    trampled under foot by Charles I. and his two wicked
    sons and successors, re-established by the revolution
    of 1688, conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists,
    and finally incorporated conspicuously in our
    own Magna Charta!”

    More from Heller and McDonald

    “[A] right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”” District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – Supreme Court (2008) at 2809.

    “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.” District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – Supreme Court (2008) at 2816.

    “We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.” McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 – Supreme Court (2010) at 3050.

    “[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms (art. 2) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons…” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 US 275 – Supreme Court (1897) at 282
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 10-17-2014 at 11:49 AM.
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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Thanks for that ^

    So the ruling basically reaffirmed we can constitutionally open carry firearms.

    It makes perfect sense to me.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Except open carry was not argued, they just used past history and decisions for reference, and guidance. Unless somebody brings up open carry to them in a case based on open carry it will not be ruled on. It does indicate where they would rule if brought before them. The same as they have made reference that the state can decide what type of gun used for self defense. Unless the court changes and goes far to the right, it is pretty clear how they will rule. Unless we do not take them at their word.

    The next 10 to 18 years the POTUS will probably be a liberal. Two more years of Obama, eight years of Billary, and then eight years of Mechelle Obama. The court will swing left before it has even a chance of swinging right.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 10-17-2014 at 04:54 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member JohnC76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post

    The next 10 to 18 years the POTUS will probably be a liberal. Two more years of Obama, eight years of Billary, and then eight years of Mechelle Obama. The court will swing left before it has even a chance of swinging right.
    If that happened, I'd want to leave America. Problem is, I haven't seen a place any better. The UN, Global Socialists and Communists that run it have already screwed up every place left that I know of. Then there's radical islam in the middle eastern countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Is NAGR even legit?
    Did you even read the excerpt in the OP?

    Regardless, I'm not a fan of NAGR.

    How do you folks feel about Gun Owners of America?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Did you even read the excerpt in the OP?

    Regardless, I'm not a fan of NAGR.

    How do you folks feel about Gun Owners of America?
    I personally have never seen anything from GOA that I didn't like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    ...the only way they could possibly win is to cheat (buy votes, hack the computer voting systems, "corpse voters") WHICH I would not put past them!
    It's already started. A democrat was caught on camera stuffing several hundreds of ballots, all fake, into his precinct's early-voting dropbox:

    CAUGHT ON TAPE: Dem Operative Stuffs Ballot Box in Arizona (Video)
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Not a fan of NAGR. To date, they haven't done a lot for me to see, except bash the NRA. It doesn't seem they want to promote the 2A....just bash the NRA for not doing what they would do. I've met a couple of people who claimed they were part of NAGR.....they seemed to be disgruntled ex-NRA members....again bashing the NRA for not doing what NAGR thinks the NRA should be doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Thanks for that ^

    So the ruling basically reaffirmed we can constitutionally open carry firearms.

    It makes perfect sense to me.
    I did not need a judge telling me this....he can always change his mind too.

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    I don't trust the NAGR... all they do is send scam emails to anyone signed up, trying to be all fake and 'personal' ... the whole email concept they use screams "scam!" ... while they may be legit, they need to work on how they come across to people.

    How do they count spending money lobbying for gun rights? paying some scammer $5million to take a plane ride to DC and stand around? Thats what I'd expect from how they seem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    More than that. I've already read of three separate instances where the electronic voting machines were recrding votes for democratic candidates instead of the candidates the voter actually wanted! One was in C(r)ook county (surprise!) where a candidate was trying to vote for himself and it went to his opponent!!
    Another was in the Rockford area but I don't remember where the 3rd incident happened.
    What should be boggling the public's mind is the fact that multiple independent teams of IT systems developers and security specialists solved the voter fraud issue, and quite definitively, back in the 1990s. We've been beating that drum ever since. Unfortunately, the politicians listen, but very few of them every actually do anything to implement what businesses widely accept as industry-standard best practices. This isn't about encryption, although that plays a key role in electronic voting systems. It goes way beyond that. It's about algorithms, the collection of procedures which, if followed, would prevent nearly all voter fraud in the first place, and detect any residual.

    The amazing thing about the algorithms is they can just as easily be applied to a paper-only system, where all voting records are maintained for however many years is necessary to investigate any legitimate claims of voter fraud.

    Every politician with whom I've had the opportunity to discuss this issue, however, is a lawyer, not a businessman. John (admin) is a rare exception to the rule that most lawyers are about as computer illiterate as the masses are legally illiterate. For example, in 2005, more than a decade after Word Perfect died a natural death everywhere else, it was still the mainstay throughout the legal world. I appreciate the fact they found the templates useful, but unfortunately, they didn't appreciate the fact that document-based "databases" had long since been eclipsed by actual databases.

    Given this, when most politicians are lawyers, the political world gravitates towards attempting to solve problems by creating more laws, instead of using the proper tools. In the case of solving voter fraud, those tools are found in systems development, not another law.

    By way of comparison, would you trust a painter who'd never turned a wrench to perform maintenance on your car?

    Successful business managers employ experts in a variety of fields:

    • Management
    • Law
    • Human Resource Management
    • Leadership
    • Accounting
    • Finance
    • Economics
    • Research and Statistics
    • Operations Management
    • Marketing
    • Strategic Planning


    Law is only one of the many required areas of expertise needed to effectively and efficiently run a business, or, for that matter, a country. Some nations recognized this decades ago and their economies are doing exceptionally well. Politicians in the U.S. keep trying to solve most things by throwing either more legislation or more money at it, and neither approach is working. Even though the feds have departments in these fields, they rarely seem to use them when they create legislation. Most Congressmen use their gut, not their heads, and unfortunately, their guts are very heavily biased towards the legal profession, to the detriment of our nation as a whole.

    Next election, keep this in mind. We need well-rounded businessmen at the helm, not more lawyers.

    The bottom line: Had the politicians been a little smarter, we'd have online and kiosk electronic voting systems today, systems which allow everyone, from individual voters on up, to verify the integrity of the system.
    Last edited by since9; 10-27-2014 at 07:51 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Teehee /\ I know a law firm that still uses Word Perfect today. When I first saw it I was like... Wait... Word Perfect still exists?

    Edit: totally agree with your post!
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 10-27-2014 at 08:48 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Now why would they want a fraud proof voting system?
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I believe the NAGR uses a marketing company to perform their email campaigning. It's possible, even likely, that the marketing company crafts the style and content of the messages, potentially with little oversight from NAGR, and probably with promises of a reaching a certain performance level.

    I believe other pro-rights organizations use the same marketing company and have similar email campaigns, in some cases even signing the emails with the names of prominent politicians.

    It's unfortunate that the hyper-aggressive and distasteful email campaign is being run and turning people off to the NAGR, but we need to remember that it's completely possible that some of these decisions are being made by non-technical people that just simply don't realize how distasteful these sort of email campaigns can be. I don't think it necessarily indicates that the NAGR is less legitimate of an organization.

    Granted, I don't have a list of their merits handy, but I the point is that I can probably forgive them for hiring a marketing company to run an annoying email campaign.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I believe the NAGR uses a marketing company to perform their email campaigning. It's possible, even likely, that the marketing company crafts the style and content of the messages, potentially with little oversight from NAGR, and probably with promises of a reaching a certain performance level.

    I believe other pro-rights organizations use the same marketing company and have similar email campaigns, in some cases even signing the emails with the names of prominent politicians.

    It's unfortunate that the hyper-aggressive and distasteful email campaign is being run and turning people off to the NAGR, but we need to remember that it's completely possible that some of these decisions are being made by non-technical people that just simply don't realize how distasteful these sort of email campaigns can be. I don't think it necessarily indicates that the NAGR is less legitimate of an organization.

    Granted, I don't have a list of their merits handy, but I the point is that I can probably forgive them for hiring a marketing company to run an annoying email campaign.
    Good lord! When I was a member of NRA the emails and the mailbox constantly stuffed with their manure was ridicules. How could anybody be worse than them?
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Good lord! When I was a member of NRA the emails and the mailbox constantly stuffed with their manure was ridicules. How could anybody be worse than them?
    It's the content, not the amounts. All the "call to action! they are going to take your rights this election unless you donate to us now!" Type emails. Then the follow up emails from a different name saying stuff like "didn't you see this important email before, you have to donate!"

    NRA I get junk but it's at least tasteful

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Good lord! When I was a member of NRA the emails and the mailbox constantly stuffed with their manure was ridicules. How could anybody be worse than them?
    Yeah, check this crap out...

    You get this email "from" Ashley acting as though Dudley sent her an email asking about whether or not you've signed up yet - from his iPhone, no less.

    Dear <your name here>:

    I very much need you to read Dudley’s message below.

    Right now, your National Association for Gun Rights is conducting our biggest giveaway yet for our Triple Threat FRONTLINE DEFENDER Push.

    That’s for one simple reason . . .

    With the November elections right around the corner and gun-grabbers likely gearing up for a Lame Duck gun control assault, we need as many people as possible to sign up for this critical program IMMEDIATELY.

    Your chance to win a Barrett 50 caliber, a Primary Weapons Systems AR-10 or a Savage Lapua rifle ends tonight at midnight!

    Please click here to sign up right away.

    --Ashley R.

    From: Dudley Brown
    To: Ashley R.

    Ashley,

    We’re just hours away from closing the books on our Triple Threat FRONTLINE DEFENDER Push.

    I still haven’t heard from <your full name here> – can you please follow up?

    I’d hate for <your name here> to miss out on this incredible giveaway.

    Please remind <your name here> to sign up as a FRONTLINE DEFENDER before midnight tonight to be automatically entered to win a Barrett 50 caliber rifle, a Primary Weapons Systems AR-10 or a Savage Lapua precision rifle.

    Here’s the link for <your name here> to sign up: <link here>

    I’ve included the email below for more information, but please make sure <your full name here> acts right away.

    –Dudley

    Sent from my iPhone
    So yeah, it's pretty bad... But if it brings in the $$$$$$... then you can bet on them continuing it.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I believe the NAGR uses a marketing company to perform their email campaigning. It's possible, even likely, that the marketing company crafts the style and content of the messages, potentially with little oversight from NAGR, and probably with promises of a reaching a certain performance level.

    I believe other pro-rights organizations use the same marketing company and have similar email campaigns, in some cases even signing the emails with the names of prominent politicians.

    It's unfortunate that the hyper-aggressive and distasteful email campaign is being run and turning people off to the NAGR, but we need to remember that it's completely possible that some of these decisions are being made by non-technical people that just simply don't realize how distasteful these sort of email campaigns can be. I don't think it necessarily indicates that the NAGR is less legitimate of an organization.

    Granted, I don't have a list of their merits handy, but I the point is that I can probably forgive them for hiring a marketing company to run an annoying email campaign.
    If they can't control the content sent via email; then this speaks volumes for what they do...nothing. So far, I haven't seen/heard of anything they have done recently. It looks like their web site touts being a player in the Colorado recalls.....in 2013. Not sure what they have done recently.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    So far, I haven't seen/heard of anything they have done recently. It looks like their web site touts being a player in the Colorado recalls.....in 2013. Not sure what they have done recently.
    I'm inclined to agree. Their News section is rather void of action, even though their fund-raising keeps moving ahead at full steam.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC76 View Post
    Is NAGR even legit?

    [snip]
    Make up your own mind: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/126...un_Rights.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Yeah, check this crap out...

    You get this email "from" Ashley acting as though Dudley sent her an email asking about whether or not you've signed up yet - from his iPhone, no less.

    So yeah, it's pretty bad... But if it brings in the $$$$$$... then you can bet on them continuing it.
    I'm pretty sure Ashley got a lot less amusement from my return email than I did from hers.

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