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Thread: IF 594 passes

  1. #1
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    IF 594 passes

    What exactly is in place that WOULD stop someone from selling their own firearm without using an FFL? It seems if it is passed, it would be completely impossible to stop this.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    What exactly is in place that WOULD stop someone from selling their own firearm without using an FFL? It seems if it is passed, it would be completely impossible to stop this.
    Absolutely nothing. Many police acknowledge this.

    The real ways it would be enforced would be by anti-gun deputy prosecutors trolling youtube and facebook and looking for videos of friends out target shooting where they hand each other guns, then get charged.

    Also, widows and surviving family will be charged when they find guns and ignorantly attempt to "register" them but do so after the arbitrary 60 day mark and rack up a misdemeanor for first offense, felony for subsequent ones, all sequenced PER firearm.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    It appears to be an unfunded initiative. It creates "new crime" and will fund itself by prosecuting Citizens to pay for its needs. Self perpetuating tyranny.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    I was thinking the same thing, except I think it's physical possession...if I gift something to someone now, or in 6 months if a law is passed, how will anyone know the difference.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Absolutely nothing. Many police acknowledge this.

    The real ways it would be enforced would be by anti-gun deputy prosecutors trolling youtube and facebook and looking for videos of friends out target shooting where they hand each other guns, then get charged.

    Also, widows and surviving family will be charged when they find guns and ignorantly attempt to "register" them but do so after the arbitrary 60 day mark and rack up a misdemeanor for first offense, felony for subsequent ones, all sequenced PER firearm.
    The Facebook/Youtube thing would be useless because I bet one could easily lie and it would be (technically) an invasion of privacy.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Lie in what way?

    Two people can't both own the gun, so unless they are immediate family which can be proven or disproven easily, at least one or both are guilty automatically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Lie in what way?

    Two people can't both own the gun, so unless they are immediate family which can be proven or disproven easily, at least one or both are guilty automatically.
    Just change where you live on Facebook and on Youtube, just don't say where you are.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    If there were any recognizable landmarks that wouldn't work. Also, if they questioned you to be sure you'd have to commit perjury.

    But that's mostly irrelevant. The people caught by this likely won't know anything about it and will have no idea that 594 causes this.
    Last edited by Alpine; 10-22-2014 at 01:42 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I think even those who wrote this monstrosity know it is unenforceable. What concerns me is how it would be used:

    1) Political weapon against gun owners - prosecute a few to make a point
    2) Push reliance on government for those who may become victims of violence
    3) Create a bunch of rules that either put compliant gun owners on a list for the next law or encourage them to voluntarily disarm

    It comes down to how willing law enforcement will be to enforce the initiative if it passes.

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    If I-594 passes

    I -594 will only be as effective as the persons who care enough to self report their transgressions.
    I-594 is almost unenforceable.

    .................. Just my opinion , Jack
    Last edited by Spooler41; 10-22-2014 at 02:13 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Respectufully Disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Lie in what way?

    Two people can't both own the gun, so unless they are immediate family which can be proven or disproven easily, at least one or both are guilty automatically.
    In the legal sense, yes more than one person can own the same gun. As an example all of my firearms are included in a family trust to which my spouse and children are the equal owners.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    In the legal sense, yes more than one person can own the same gun. As an example all of my firearms are included in a family trust to which my spouse and children are the equal owners.

    ~Whitney
    And do you think that describes the common gun owner in WA? Or even a plurality among them?

  13. #13
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    NO

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    And do you think that describes the common gun owner in WA? Or even a plurality among them?

    While I agree with you that was not the stated question.

    It is entirely possible for more than one person to own the same firearm.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    While I agree with you that was not the stated question.

    It is entirely possible for more than one person to own the same firearm.

    ~Whitney
    Sure. And that will be your burden to prove once a rabid prosecutor has targeted you using 594.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Your making my argument for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Sure. And that will be your burden to prove once a rabid prosecutor has targeted you using 594.
    It is for the exact reasons you have pointed out that makes this such a bad proposal.

    The proposed law even states that you must "knowingly violatet it". What the hell does that mean?

    "I" know I am not violating it in the example given because of my family trust. I have done my due dillegence how would you legaly hold me to the law?

    Not trying to be argumentative with you, this is a real life scenario law abiding citizens may find themselves in.

    Regarding the knowingly violate clause; I had the same conversation with Drew Hanson you are having with me. Finally I told him I did not believe ingorance of the law was a defense, He has not replied for going on six weeks now.

    I would welcome discussion with rationale to repeal or overturn if this comes to fruition.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Good discussion. While you may have done your due diligence you might have a he'll of a time proving that and face a prosecutor who will wring you through the system until the very last minute anyway, costing you time, anguish, money and unwanted public attention.

    I also agree about the "knowing" standard being much lower than usual law and it will cause a lot of confusion and issues.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    Waguns.org becomes Idahoguns.org and Seattleguns.org becomes portlandguns.org. $50 FFL transfer or $50 fuel bill?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    What exactly is in place that WOULD stop someone from selling their own firearm without using an FFL? It seems if it is passed, it would be completely impossible to stop this.
    Hey , stop pointing out the uselessness of gun laws !

    Supposed to be a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    If there were any recognizable landmarks that wouldn't work. Also, if they questioned you to be sure you'd have to commit perjury.

    But that's mostly irrelevant. The people caught by this likely won't know anything about it and will have no idea that 594 causes this.
    I believe Perjury by legal terms means you got caught lying under oath. But I get the point you are making. But once again, it would be so easy to do.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    I believe Perjury by legal terms means you got caught lying under oath. But I get the point you are making. But once again, it would be so easy to do.
    To be sure they'd drag you into court and fight you the whole way that's where the perjury comes in.

    Of course you could always plead the 5th but that would work in their favor if they convinced a jury or judge the video was shot in WA.
    Last edited by Alpine; 10-22-2014 at 06:27 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    To be sure they'd drag you into court and fight you the whole way that's where the perjury comes in.

    Of course you could always plead the 5th but that would work in their favor if they convinced a jury or judge the video was shot in WA.
    Good point. But I am going on record now and say even if 594 passes, I am still going to let other people shoot my stuff if they let me shoot their stuff.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    Good point. But I am going on record now and say even if 594 passes, I am still going to let other people shoot my stuff if they let me shoot their stuff.
    So, I can touch yours if you can touch mine? :P
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

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  23. #23
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    Youtube video idea

    1) A group of gun owners set up a video camera.
    2) Said group of gun owners form a circle and pass their [UNLOADED] guns around and around until everyone until everyone has their own original gun.
    3) Post the video on Youtube titled as "I-594 Dan Satterburg Gun Transfers".

    Dan Satterburg's problem: proving that the video was made after the bill goes into effect.
    Last edited by 44Brent; 10-22-2014 at 07:54 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44Brent View Post
    1) A group of gun owners set up a video camera.
    2) Said group of gun owners form a circle and pass their [UNLOADED] guns around and around until everyone until everyone has their own original gun.
    3) Post the video on Youtube titled as "I-594 Dan Satterburg Gun Transfers".

    Dan Satterburg's problem: proving that the video was made after the bill goes into effect.
    Actually I was thinking we could do this on the Lawn in front of the Tivoli Fountain at the State Capitol.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    If there were any recognizable landmarks that wouldn't work. Also, if they questioned you to be sure you'd have to commit perjury.
    You can't commit perjury in this state during questioning by the police but, more importantly, you can't even come close if you simply don't answer any questions. Since the rules are that anything you say can and will be used against you the best course is to not say anything. Period.

    If you don't want to take my word for it, just watch this and I think you will be convinced:

    Part 1, the law professor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7...eature=related

    Part 2, the cop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
    Last edited by Lammo; 10-23-2014 at 02:01 AM.
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