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IF 594 passes

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,241
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
When 594 passes, the only way it will be enforced is for registration to happen, which it will.

Is this not the actual purpose of 594? It appears to me that the background check thing was just collateral damage for the forced registry. The BG check, as they stand now, have a five day wait that would be extended to ten days. The "transfer" would go thru after that ten days. Who cares if it ever happens. Now they know where the firearm is. What they do with that information is a matter of "wait and see". Being as so much of 594 is undefined, the DOL will be able to help out with the interpretation. And the penalty's.




For the few, there is a bit of "sarcasm" in my post. PM me if you need help with it.
 

GunnyG

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
34
Location
Grapeview, Washington, USA
Is this not the actual purpose of 594? It appears to me that the background check thing was just collateral damage for the forced registry. The BG check, as they stand now, have a five day wait that would be extended to ten days. The "transfer" would go thru after that ten days. Who cares if it ever happens. Now they know where the firearm is. What they do with that information is a matter of "wait and see". Being as so much of 594 is undefined, the DOL will be able to help out with the interpretation. And the penalty's.

For the few, there is a bit of "sarcasm" in my post. PM me if you need help with it.

Who else can imagine a Chief O' Toole saying "we don't know if he isn't prohibited, nor do we know if we have all of the applicant's records yet" and using this to not approve a pistol transfer for 30 days?:

"... (e) ..., if the records of disposition have not yet been reported or entered sufficiently to determine eligibility to purchase a pistol, the local jurisdiction may hold the sale and delivery of the pistol up to thirty days in order to confirm existing records in this state or elsewhere. ..." (sec 5, pg 10, I-594)

... and that's after she was able to sit on the application for 10 business days under "... Ten business days have elapsed from the date the licensed dealer requested the background check. However, for sales and transfers of pistols if the purchaser or transferee does not have a valid permanent Washington driver's license or state identification card or has not been a resident of the state for the previous consecutive ninety days, then the time period in this subsection shall be extended from ten business days to sixty days.." (sec 4, pg 10, I-594)
 

kparker

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,326
Location
Tacoma, Washington, USA
Lie in what way?

Two people can't both own the gun, so unless they are immediate family which can be proven or disproven easily, at least one or both are guilty automatically.

Not even that! The "immediate family" exception only applies to BONA FIDE sales, not to temporary transfers: the latter exception applies to spouse or domestic partners only.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
LEO exception?

IF there is no LEO exception, THEN anytime the cops do an illegal, "stop and inspect" that would be a transfer within the definition of the law.

Then the cops would have to be prosecuted also, each time they take your firearms during an arrest.
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
IF there is no LEO exception, THEN anytime the cops do an illegal, "stop and inspect" that would be a transfer within the definition of the law.

Then the cops would have to be prosecuted also, each time they take your firearms during an arrest.

Try actually reading it. There is a LEO exception while in performance of duties. No exemption for them off duty target shooting with friends out in Capitol Forest.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
We have paperwork in my state when a transfer is done that is expected to be sent to the state.

I never sent any to the state when I was a dealer.

Now what? Nothing. Following illegal laws ? Pass.
 

Jeff. State

Banned
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
650
Location
usa
When 594 passes..................

Burn your NRA membership cards and throw Alan Gottlieb across the Columbia river to PDX or into Canada where he belongs.


Gottlieb singlehandedly has split the Pro 2nd forces, and the NRA has pitched in virtually NOTHING compared to the HUNDREDS of millions(.5 Billion plus) they have brought in in the last year and a half.

IGNORE the "law". PERIOD!

Defend yourself by all means necessary against those who would try to "enFORCE" it.
 

()pen(arry

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
Gottlieb singlehandedly has split the Pro 2nd forces

I voted against 591 (and, of course, 594). 591 is bad law. I don't care what its supporters say; it's bad law. I always, always vote against bad law.

People who try to vote "strategically" are foolish. They are chasing their tails. Rational, observant, responsible people follow two principles: support liberty; oppose tyranny. Of course, these are ultimately the same principle.

I understand the intent of 591. I am aware that it is an attempt to trick pro-594 voters into countering themselves. I am not remotely interested in "clever" ruses and vain shenanigans. I oppose bad law, no matter its intent, no matter who endorses it.

I endorse liberty. Period.
 

()pen(arry

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
So, you voted against I-591 in order to allow legislation like I-594 to have a chance at succeeding in later years? Without I-591 in place, we will just have to keep fighting the anti-gun crowd every year - is that what your goal was? You like the suspense and challenge every year?

I made it very clear why I voted against 591: it's bad law.
  1. Confiscation already requires due process, and no vague restatement of that will protect us against those committed to it; and
  2. Washington is a sovereign state and, as such, should have no regard for national standards for unconstitutional restrictions, one way or another.
I am not remotely moved by anyone's attempt to counter bad law with bad law. 591 is bad law on its own merits. That alone is sufficient to determine my position on it. My vote is governed by principle, not "strategy".

I endorse liberty. Period.
 

Jeff. State

Banned
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Aug 29, 2012
Messages
650
Location
usa
I made it very clear why I voted against 591: it's bad law.
  1. Confiscation already requires due process, and no vague restatement of that will protect us against those committed to it; and
  2. Washington is a sovereign state and, as such, should have no regard for national standards for unconstitutional restrictions, one way or another.
I am not remotely moved by anyone's attempt to counter bad law with bad law. 591 is bad law on its own merits. That alone is sufficient to determine my position on it. My vote is governed by principle, not "strategy".

I endorse liberty. Period.

Pass a "law" to counter another "law". When all these "laws" are ultimately in violation of the Second Amendment.

Laws, Laws and more Laws makes Gottlieb a happy man.


No on Both!

And when 594 passes, COMPLETE noncompliance/disregard/recognition of it by gun owners.

When exactly is it "Time" for people to say enough??????
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Grandpa, why did you pass a law that forces our state to cooperate with the feds contrary to the constitution?

Well booboo, we eroded liberties to not erode liberties.
 

()pen(arry

Regular Member
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Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
We are already constitutionally protected against everything 591 purports to protect against. Enacting superfluous law necessarily creates future risks and hazards.

Consider the US Bill of Rights. While the Anti-Federalists and Federalists argued positions, respectively, for and against a Bill of Rights, each with great reasoning and valid concerns, we have witnessed that the Bill of Rights, merely by existing, has been misconstrued to enumerate the only rights possessed by Americans. It may reasonably be argued that, had no Bill of Rights been enacted, we would have had no recognized protections. However, I believe that, had defenders of liberty kept focus on the blanket liberty assured by the Constitution, rather than allowing the focus to be placed exclusively on the Bill of Rights, we would have protected liberty in general, rather than merely the rights in the first ten amendments. That is, by concentrating our defense of liberty in specific rights, we relinquished general liberty, to the point that most Americans genuinely believe the first ten amendments are our only rights, and consider even those to be mere privileges, to be rescinded at whim. Our sorry battle, as a result, is protecting what few rights we focused on from direct assault, with general liberty long-since relinquished and forgotten.

591 creates a presumption and establishes an expectation, intended or not, that if a national "standard" for background checks is enacted, Washington will de facto enforce national "standard"-compliant universal background checks, or at least will be expected to enact such compliant laws†. Moreover, it creates a presumption and establishes an expectation, intended or not, that Washington's gun laws defer to the federal government. Furthermore, every law which is enacted carries not merely the risk, but the guarantee, of unintended consequences and misinterpretation.

However benign 591 seems today, it will prove to be a thorn in the side of liberty before long, simply by existing.

† 591, paraphrased, says, "No background check laws in Washington stricter than a national standard". 591 supporters think this is very clever, since there is no national standard. 594 supporters see a clear, one-step plan to get universal background checks in Washington. When, in the shockingly near future, there is some law that can vaguely be construed by a liberal judge to be a national standard (due, inevitably, to the complicity of McConnell-style Republicans), 594 supporters will say, "Hey, you said as long as there was a national standard, we could have universal background checks in Washington." Before you can begin to mumble, "That's not what we meant," they will have ceased listening to you, and you will have no credibility in the eyes of the normative voter.
 
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Seriona

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Jun 9, 2014
Messages
151
Location
Snohomish, WA
Good point about 591 however I do not think that their will be a federal background check any time soon because when ever the government brings it up, a lot of states will argue with the 10th amendment and WA usually quits.
 

()pen(arry

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
Interesting theory. I don't think I am quite ready to vote to repeal the Bill of Rights due to their limiting affect upon our rights.

Not the point. Consider:

Suppose you don't want your child staying out late at night. You tell her it's a school night. She says tomorrow is a holiday. You tell her she needs sleep for the next day. She says she'll take a nap. The conversation devolves into a pointless back-and-forth argument. You know that you know best, but the child has an answer for every explanation you give. Or you simply establish a blanket rule that curfew is 9:30PM (or whatever), and brook no argument. Which is the better parenting strategy?

Now extrapolate this to liberty. Is it better to defend liberty as a principle, or fight over particular details and lose sight of the fundamental issue? The Anti-federalists had good and valid arguments, but history has shown us how it played out: the conversation that should have focused on the federal government having no authority not explicitly granted it turned into a conversation about whether the federal government was violating a particular right, while the federal government quietly and happily took all powers for itself. The Bill of Rights has turned out to be self-inflicted misdirection. I don't fault the Founders for getting it wrong, but there's no reason to repeat their error.

Alexander Hamilton said:
It has been several times truly remarked, that bills of rights are in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgments of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince. Such was Magna Charta, obtained by the Barons, sword in hand, from king John. Such were the subsequent confirmations of that charter by subsequent princes. Such was the petition of right assented to by Charles the First, in the beginning of his reign. Such also was the declaration of right presented by the lords and commons to the prince of Orange in 1688, and afterwards thrown into the form of an act of parliament, called the bill of rights. It is evident, therefore, that according to their primitive signification, they have no application to constitutions professedly founded upon the power of the people, and executed by their immediate representatives and servants. Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain every thing, they have no need of particular reservations. "We the people of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America." Here is a better recognition of popular rights than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our state bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government.

...

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and on this very account, would afford a colourable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why for instance, should it be said, that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretence for claiming that power. They might urge with a semblance of reason, that the constitution ought not to be charged with the absurdity of providing against the abuse of an authority, which was not given, and that the provision against restraining the liberty of the press afforded a clear implication, that a power to prescribe proper regulations concerning it, was intended to be vested in the national government. This may serve as a specimen of the numerous handles which would be given to the doctrine of constructive powers, by the indulgence of an injudicious zeal for bills of rights.

Could the man have been more prescient? I think not.

One does not properly argue in favor of repealing the Bill of Rights. One instead properly recognizes the realized miscalculation of the Bill of Rights and seeks not to repeat such terrible error.
 

()pen(arry

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735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
Good point about 591 however I do not think that their will be a federal background check any time soon because when ever the government brings it up, a lot of states will argue with the 10th amendment and WA usually quits.

You are confident that there will be no Universal Background Check Act of 2018. Bully for you.

I, however, am confident that there will be a Rule of Law Act of 2017, which, among other monstrosities, makes provision and allocates funding for a Dangerous Weapons and Controlled Munitions Bureau, which is authorized to identify such devices as may pose threat to national security in the hands of foreign and domestic actors and, as such, are subject to provisions and recommendations which shall inform state and local law enforcement as to rules governing their transference. Such provisions and recommendations will include strictures regarding "chemical propulsion" devices, justified by the Select Subcommittee on Terrorism as preventing rocket propelled grenades falling into the hands of terrorists and threatening domestic commercial flights. Some clever future state Senator with a law degree from UW will successfully argue that the mechanism by which rocket propelled grenades are vectored along their trajectories is momentum imparted by "chemical expansion through a cylindrical tube", which is also how bullets are fired. Stare decisis coupled with plausible case law will result in the Supreme Court of the State of Washington upholding a lower court ruling in favor of a King Country prosecutor who charged a Shoreline man with aiding and abetting terrorism when he sold a Bersa Thunder to a half-Asian kid whose father was a member of Falun Gong, who are still on the registry of terrorist organizations in Washington, D.C. because the government of China really, really doesn't like them, and the Republican-appointed Trade Secretary was hot to close a deal on an East Asia free trade agreement. Suddenly, there is a "national standard" for gun transfer background checks, and you just got arrested for transferring your uncle's 10/22 to your son.

Now tell me something. Do you really think this is far-fetched?
 

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
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United States
You are confident that there will be no Universal Background Check Act of 2018. Bully for you.

I, however, am confident that there will be a Rule of Law Act of 2017, which, among other monstrosities, makes provision and allocates funding for a Dangerous Weapons and Controlled Munitions Bureau, which is authorized to identify such devices as may pose threat to national security in the hands of foreign and domestic actors and, as such, are subject to provisions and recommendations which shall inform state and local law enforcement as to rules governing their transference. Such provisions and recommendations will include strictures regarding "chemical propulsion" devices, justified by the Select Subcommittee on Terrorism as preventing rocket propelled grenades falling into the hands of terrorists and threatening domestic commercial flights. Some clever future state Senator with a law degree from UW will successfully argue that the mechanism by which rocket propelled grenades are vectored along their trajectories is momentum imparted by "chemical expansion through a cylindrical tube", which is also how bullets are fired. Stare decisis coupled with plausible case law will result in the Supreme Court of the State of Washington upholding a lower court ruling in favor of a King Country prosecutor who charged a Shoreline man with aiding and abetting terrorism when he sold a Bersa Thunder to a half-Asian kid whose father was a member of Falun Gong, who are still on the registry of terrorist organizations in Washington, D.C. because the government of China really, really doesn't like them, and the Republican-appointed Trade Secretary was hot to close a deal on an East Asia free trade agreement. Suddenly, there is a "national standard" for gun transfer background checks, and you just got arrested for transferring your uncle's 10/22 to your son.

Now tell me something. Do you really think this is far-fetched?
Yes. Far-fetched.

None of that will happen because aliens will land way before that and give you ray guns. So much for "gas propulsion from a tube" or w/e you said. Now they will have to link death rays somehow. Maybe to light bulbs?

Yes that's it.

Light bulbs.

Ban them.
 

Jeff. State

Banned
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Messages
650
Location
usa
Yes. Far-fetched.

None of that will happen because aliens will land way before that and give you ray guns. So much for "gas propulsion from a tube" or w/e you said. Now they will have to link death rays somehow. Maybe to light bulbs?

Yes that's it.

Light bulbs.

Ban them.


Nothing worse than a Troll who also thinks they're funny on the side.

Primus you go ahead and keep making "funny" as others loose more and more fundamental Rights. We know YOU wont lose YOURS because you are a cop. Cops can carry wherever they want, must be grand.
 
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Primus

Regular Member
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Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
First, I was right. See they are trying to ban light bulbs! That's insane...
Nothing worse than a Troll who also thinks they're funny on the side.

Primus you go ahead and keep making "funny" as others loose more and more fundamental Rights. We know YOU wont lose YOURS because you are a cop. Cops can carry wherever they want, must be grand.
Second, hey Maria it's LOSE. As in lost. Not LOOSE as in opposite of tight.

Use spell check when you insult others. It works wonders. :D

Someone seems to have a loose grip on reality possibly due to them losing their mind. :rolleyes:

Could be me
 
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