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Thread: newbie - basic Q & A - St. Charles, MO

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    newbie - basic Q & A - St. Charles, MO

    Hi, first off great forum and thank you to all who manage this site.

    I am very familiar with firearms and have my CCW. But need a little education on OC.

    Here's what I think, let me know where I'm wrong!
    1) Open carry is approved by MO state, but can and is restricted at local levels?
    2) St. Charles county and unincorporated areas are OC?
    3) You need a CCW to open carry (since the firearm is still on person)?

    Now a few questions:
    1) I rarely see open carry, I suspect because of general ignorance of the law? I know a local police officer (in St. Charles County) and talked to him about this. He said he was familiar with the law but usually stops anybody he sees with a firearm visable, particually in the more urban areas of St. Charles, which he says is relatively rare. In general, I suspect those who OC open themselves (unjustly) to additional scrutiny and arguably even harassment?

    2) Are there any special laws with OC? Weapon type, holster/carry requirements, etc?

    3) Beyond common sense, not being drunk or acting like an idiot; what are some basic rules or suggestions you have about OC?

    I really do appreciate your input, please add any additional basic information too.

    P.S. I know a lot of this info is located on this site, I did some searches but didn't find exactly what I needed. So, I joined up and will spend several hours this weekend getting myself more educated. For now, I appreciate you help with some of the basics.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by jrwpmw; 10-23-2014 at 09:14 AM. Reason: grammar

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    Welcome, come to the open carry walk this Saturday and learn from folks doing it each day.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Welcome!

    The Open Carry Walk thread. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...lk-Oct-25-2014
    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    Hi, first off great forum and thank you to all who manage this site.

    I am very familiar with firearms and have my CCW. But need a little education on OC.

    Here's what I think, let me know where I'm wrong!
    1) Open carry is approved by MO state, but can and is restricted at local levels? MO Constitution. RSMo enables valid endorsement holders to ignore (defense against) local OC bans.
    2) St. Charles county and unincorporated areas are OC?
    3) You need a CCW to open carry (since the firearm is still on person)? Only where OC is banned.

    Now a few questions:
    1) I rarely see open carry, I suspect because of general ignorance of the law? I know a local police officer (in St. Charles County) and talked to him about this. He said he was familiar with the law but usually stops anybody he sees with a firearm visible, particularly in the more urban areas of St. Charles, which he says is relatively rare. In general, I suspect those who OC open themselves (unjustly) to additional scrutiny and arguably even harassment? OC is not unlawful in St Charles City, so, he is not familiar with the law or, he is going to ignore the law if he is a St Charles PD, or County cop. http://www.ecode360.com/27700554

    2) Are there any special laws with OC? Weapon type, holster/carry requirements, etc? No.

    3) Beyond common sense, not being drunk or acting like an idiot; what are some basic rules or suggestions you have about OC? You just covered them.

    I really do appreciate your input, please add any additional basic information too.

    P.S. I know a lot of this info is located on this site, I did some searches but didn't find exactly what I needed. So, I joined up and will spend several hours this weekend getting myself more educated. For now, I appreciate you help with some of the basics.

    Thanks in advance!
    Again, welcome.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Welcome!! OC for ME pretty much covered it all. Definitely come on out to the OC walk on Saturday if you can. Plenty of people to talk to and learn from.

    As for other info about OC: most people don't even notice. I OC about half the time when I'm out and about now, and I'd estimate that maybe 1 in 100 people even notice I'm carrying, much less say/do anything about it. If you've never OC'd before, you're going to feel like every single person is staring at you, but that's really not the case.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Thanks and a few more questions

    Thanks for the warm welcome and info. I may well attend the walk, I may have missed it, but what time will it start?

    Could you clarify a few things for me? You CAN OC WITHOUT a CCW? Meaning if the weapon is visable you don't need the CCW?

    You can even OC in areas of MO that restrict it; but you must have a CCW in that case? Reason being the MO constitution overrides local ordanances?

    However, I assume, OC or CCW is restricted by private businesses by choice (stores, companies, etc) and always in government buildings, schools; but how about public events that are sponsored by a local, city or state entity (like state fair, etc.)?

    Thanks again,

    PS a clarifying point, that officer I know said he is familiar with the law, but he will often question people he see who OC. But now, I don't know what he ment by that! I assumed he was checking for a CCW, but now I wonder what his reason is when he questions people?
    Last edited by jrwpmw; 10-23-2014 at 11:52 AM. Reason: clarify

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    Thanks for the warm welcome and info. I may well attend the walk, I may have missed it, but what time will it start?

    Could you clarify a few things for me? You CAN OC WITHOUT a CCW? Meaning if the weapon is visable you don't need the CCW?

    You can even OC in areas of MO that restrict it; but you must have a CCW in that case? Reason being the MO constitution overrides local ordanances?

    However, I assume, OC or CCW is restricted by private businesses by choice (stores, companies, etc) and always in government buildings, schools; but how about public events that are sponsored by a local, city or state entity (like state fair, etc.)?

    Thanks again,

    PS a clarifying point, that officer I know said he is familiar with the law, but he will often question people he see who OC. But now, I don't know what he ment by that! I assumed he was checking for a CCW, but now I wonder what his reason is when he questions people?
    Missouri is a bit weird when it comes to OC. Basically, the state allows OC, BUT it also allows local municipalities to restrict OC as they see fit. Some places restrict OC, and other places don't. It's generally very difficult, if not impossible, to determine which are which. About a month ago the legislature passed SB656, which allows people to OC even in those restricted municipalities if and only if they have a valid CCW permit.

    The simplest answer at this point, with regards to SB656 at least, is to just make sure you have your CCW permit any time you OC. There's another whole fluff about Amendment 5, but I'll leave that for someone else to explain since it's not been tested yet.

    And yes, businesses and the like can still prohibit OC. So far as I'm aware, it's ok to CC/OC at the state fair, though more than likely you'll be asked to leave if you OC. If you don't, they could charge you with a misdemeanor trespassing charge.

    DISCLAIMER!! I am not a lawyer. Take everything here with a grain of salt.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    Thanks for the warm welcome and info. I may well attend the walk, I may have missed it, but what time will it start?

    Could you clarify a few things for me? You CAN OC WITHOUT a CCW? Meaning if the weapon is visable you don't need the CCW? Yes and no. Yes in cities/towns that do not ban OC via RSMo 21.750.3, no endorsement is required to OC. Yes in cities/towns that do ban OC via RSMo 21.750.3, endorsement is required to OC. No in cities/towns that do ban OC via RSMo 21.750.3 without a endorsement.

    You can even OC in areas of MO that restrict it; but you must have a CCW in that case? Reason being the MO constitution overrides local ordanances? NO, A5 to the state constitution does not override local ordinances, at this time. It may well make all carry restrictions, including CCW restrictions, unconstitutional, that event must be decided by the State SC.

    However, I assume, OC or CCW is restricted by private businesses by choice (stores, companies, etc) and always in government buildings, schools; but how about public events that are sponsored by a local, city or state entity (like state fair, etc.)? Simpler...no guns allowed signs regardless of the actual wording. Many signs show no concealed guns () but I would not enter OCing. Take your money elsewhere.

    Thanks again,

    PS a clarifying point, that officer I know said he is familiar with the law, but he will often question people he see who OC. But now, I don't know what he ment by that! I assumed he was checking for a CCW, but now I wonder what his reason is when he questions people?
    Ask him. Let us know what he says. This may be a excellent teaching moment for he and thee.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    update

    I talked to my police friend last night. He said that the people he stops "and talks to" were ones he deemed a little suspecious, out late of a night, etc. You can call that what you want, but I know what he is saying

    Note - this guy knows the current laws very well, but he said not all officers do and it varies greatly by department (his department had meeting over this, etc).

    He said simply walks up to a person and asks if they had a CCW license, which he says (his experience) most people who OC do have. If so, he asks if it's OK for him too see it. Most people don't mind, but if they refused or mentioned the OC law he just thanks them and tell them to have a good day.

    But IF, he is very suspicious of a person he would try to find a reason to get a name and run a check, looking for a felony, etc.

    Damn, I forgot to ask now that I think about it. But I wonder if he can run a check if you smell of alochol? I would think so? DUI check points don't seem any different than walking up to someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ask him. Let us know what he says. This may be a excellent teaching moment for he and thee.

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    Why does he want to see the CCW?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    ... Damn, I forgot to ask now that I think about it. But I wonder if he can run a check if you smell of alochol? I would think so? DUI check points don't seem any different than walking up to someone?
    Well, based on the wording in RSMo 571.030.1(5) and the definition of intoxicated in 571.010.1(11) the smell of alcohol alone would not be enough, in my opinion, to stop a OCer. The OCers mannerisms as in "...substantially impaired mental or physical capacity..." would be justification for a cop to be concerned but as long as the OCer is not "...and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner..." then there would not be any justification to interact with the OCer. Now, some cops may use the "He might do something negligent or unlawful because he seems drunk." canard and if so the cop places himself at risk either legally or civilly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    Why does he want to see the CCW?
    Pavlovian response me thinks.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    DUI check points don't seem any different than walking up to someone?
    The argument has been made that DUI checkpoints are unconstitutional as well......
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    Why does he want to see the CCW?
    I "think" the key is that he just asks, so you can say yes, no, why because I don't need one, etc. But now I think that's a more legitimate question if you OC in an area that has ordinances against it? Meaning you need a CCW in that case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwpmw View Post
    Hi, first off great forum and thank you to all who manage this site.
    Welcome to the forum! Were you by any chance directed here by (likely our mutual friend) Rodney?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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