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Thread: NFA challenge

  1. #1
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    NFA challenge

    Due to a recent blunder by the ATF in regard to NFA Trusts they opened the door for people to apply for automatic weapons tax stamps under a trust as a trust "was not a person". Not being a person a trust would therefore be able to own a fully automatic weapon. The ATF under Obama was trying to prevent people from getting suppressors with trusts without having the ****block of the chief LEO signature.

    So a lawyer is now taking a case representing those people to challenge the 1986 ban and the 1934 NFA. With some other rulings now decided (Heller, McDonald) this may have some more momentum.

    To help push this, there is a site taking donations for fund the suit and appeals if needed:

    http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-25-2014 at 04:06 PM.

  2. #2
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    For those of us without a whole lot of background on restricted firearms; please give us a primer on the problem, and why it should change. Include that with your solicitation for donations. Assume we don't have working knowledge in that area, and assume we won't research this on our own. But I will, however read what you post.


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    http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

    This relevant? A LAWYER seeking $$$ to pay himself? Do it pro bono if you are really a pro-2nd amendment guy; how many of us get paid for our efforts?

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    I'd read about it a few weeks ago, was reposting to make sure the information was still circulating. As it turns out I first read it on this forum in the News and Politics section.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...E-TO-THE-CAUSE

    As to what and why it matters, primarily depends on your understanding of the purpose behind the 2nd Amendment and the relevance of having parity with an oppressive force bent on serving a tyrant. That falls under choir preaching, or at least it should.

    In a nutshell though:

    Suppressors - a safety device that reduces the sound of a firearm discharge to levels that won't permanently damage your hearing with just a few shots. They are not "silencers" as the 100+dba resulting sound is far from silent (most in the 120-140 range down from 160-170+ of un-muzzled guns). They also largely contain the muzzle flash so having a suppressed firearm defending your home at night would also prevent your first shot from night blinding you. Hollywood has long promoted these as the tools of assassins, but if you know the real stats on them you will find they are *required* in other countries as a safety device. In 1934 people weren't very careful about hearing safety (or much else, hardhats, steel toed shoes, safety glasses were rare).

    Short barreled long arms (rifle, shotgun) - these were originally included in the '34 NFA because of "concealability" relating to Prohibition era gangsters. Many people today own AR pistols which aside from quibbling about the furniture as the same thing as a short barreled AR rifle/carbine sans stock (but you can still put the buffer tube to your shoulder, with a "storage" pad on it...). Does nothing to prevent or solve crimes but it does create a bureaucratic trap for people who like to build and accessorize their own firearms.

    Automatic weapons - the idea of the right partly taken from US vs Miller and other court cases, statements by the authors of the 2nd Amendment, debates and writings of the Founders - is that the arms carried by the common foot soldier are the arms protected by the right. In fact during the Revolutionary War civilians were mostly armed with superior weapons to the British Regulars Brown Bess. In US vs Miller the subject was a short barreled shotgun, that if it was not an Ex Parte decision (Miller was dead, attorney not present) setup to bolster the NFA, evidence would have shown such a weapon was employed as a "trench gun" in WWI and it would have been found to have been protected by the Right. Similarly, soldiers of that time carried Thompson SMGs and Browning BARs as personal weapons, thus making them "militia" arms. Despite Bonnie & Clyde using a BAR, the vast majority of Americans that could own one weren't misusing them to commit crimes, as those who legally own machine guns today are not. However, should an event like the Revolution again come thru American history, suppressing fire will be important and that is the function of automatic weapons and relates to use in a militia.
    Last edited by Saxxon; 10-27-2014 at 06:31 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I think we all know why it matters. That was not his point.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...E-TO-THE-CAUSE

    throughout the previous discussion on this thread:
    NOBODY could articulate what significant cases this attorney has worked on except terms like 'oh, 2a causes';
    NOBODY could provide information of why this solicitation from this attorney has no physical office address listed on the MS bar association's website or on the internet;
    NOBODY could articulate why this solicitation from this MS attorney to fight a narrow machine gun statute is on OC's forum;
    NOBODY could articulate which organization, SAF, GOA, NRA, or even JFPO is working with 'Stephen' to bring this ambiguous suit.

    all that was used as justification against my questions was 2A rhetoric thrown at me about 'i am not supporting the cause'

    perhaps this thread can answer these critical thinking skilled question(s) on where the money being collected by 'stephen' is going and being used for w/o the using the 2A banner.

    if y'al have this kinda of extra disposable funds...send them to me

    saxxon, his solicitation is about a singular machine gun statute not suppressors!!.
    d

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 10-27-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Yea I'm thinking of a gofundme page to pay for my daily OC walks. So far that is more than the promise of filing cases.

    FYI the issue was never no support for ending NFA, or GCA, was the solicitation of money without at least talking to the community. Giving us some sense we could trust this attorney. We were insulted and false claims made that we did not support 2A, called names, called even worse names on AR15. Both on that site and our own we were told we were antis because many of us OC is our prime objective. We had a similar problem when a 420 individual came and tried the same demands.

    There is right way and a wrong way to do things. Coming in demanding money and throwing insults is not the right way.

    Get back to me when the attorney actually files some cases...

    BTW just like some claimed full time LEO's spend as much time as I do when I am retired. How does a successful attorney spend so much time on AR15? Most attorneys I know are so backlogged with cases they barely have time to research their cases. That's why they have to hire people to do it for them.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 10-27-2014 at 07:49 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  8. #8
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i jus contributed two bits to your gofund WW

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  9. #9
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i jus contributed two bits to your gofund WW

    ipse
    So did I. I put my "bits" in a box and express mailed it. Hopefully its still warm when it gets there.

    I'd donate more if you promised to go on your "oc walks" in the middle of a busy freeway. Lol
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So did I. I put my "bits" in a box and express mailed it. Hopefully its still warm when it gets there.

    I'd donate more if you promised to go on your "oc walks" in the middle of a busy freeway. Lol
    Be careful sending your bits, I would hate it if you were not full of bits. For where I live the road I walk is a busy freeway, probably one vehicle every half hour.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 10-28-2014 at 10:08 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  11. #11
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    The OP doesn't make sense to me.

    1) With a trust it is easier to obtain Title II items because the trust does not need to obtain a CLEO sign off.

    2) A trust does not allow the purchase of pre 1986 MG's. Nothing has changed there other than you don't need the CLEO sign off.

    That said, the ATF has proposed a rule change that would require trusts to obtain a CLEO sign off. They are still responding to the mass amount of public comment they received and the decision is expected to come sometime next year.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

  12. #12
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I was trying to make sense of their goal on AR15, but there are no stated goals and objectives, or even a plan. Just a rally cry for money.

    Some think they can reverse NFA and GCA, and others just want to buy post 86 machine guns. Other than that they spend their time dissing other sites and boards for not emptying their bank accounts on a NON plan.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  13. #13
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    The OP doesn't make sense to me.

    1) With a trust it is easier to obtain Title II items because the trust does not need to obtain a CLEO sign off.

    2) A trust does not allow the purchase of pre 1986 MG's. Nothing has changed there other than you don't need the CLEO sign off.

    That said, the ATF has proposed a rule change that would require trusts to obtain a CLEO sign off. They are still responding to the mass amount of public comment they received and the decision is expected to come sometime next year.
    +1
    yet this is the second time this apparent BS solicitation has roamed this forum...i am curious if i will hear back from the complaint i put in with the mississippi bar association as well as the consumer fraud division about this particular advertisement.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  14. #14
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    For one thing, its not my suit or funding site. I was passing on the information of its existence and the case/situation. Evaluate it as you see fit.

    I will say that having gone thru a civil rights suit recently and being disappointed at the fact it was either settle or abandon due to funding the attorney's costs, any correction of the NFA and its attendants violation of rights is going to cost - 6-7 figures worth of $.

    As I understand it, the issue is that to stop NFA trusts the BATFE was deciding to classify the trust as a non-person, but the wording of the '86 ban then allowed the "non-person" to own full auto post '86 firearms. Maybe its more subtle than that, maybe its not. I do know that we had the issue several months back where 'Bammy & the BATFE were looking to shut down the NFA trust method of owning NFA items and not having the CLEO signature.

    EDIT: Email notice this morning that they filed the first complaint. I do note that they still list Holder as a defendant, either because the paperwork was already in progress when he announced resignation or because he's still officially holding that post as a replacement hasn't been confirmed. Reading the complaint I see they did hit upon a key point I have always figured was crucial - the US v Miller language about relevance to common defense, in effect stating the relevance of the arms in question so that the court must then examine it instead of pretending they don't know what the military has armed itself for the last 100 years with.
    Last edited by Saxxon; 10-31-2014 at 10:06 AM.

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