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Thread: Sporting Equipment or Assault Weapon?

  1. #1
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    Sporting Equipment or Assault Weapon?

    http://badgerlakeobserver.blogspot.c...t-weapons.html


    Derek Jeter recently hit his last home run. The baseball bat he used will become a piece of famous sports history. People will travel from everywhere to see it and take pictures of their children standing next to it. Now, how about that same sporting equipment used in Joe Pesci’s last scene in Casino? Or by Robert DeNiro in The Untouchables?

    (go ahead - Google "Joe Pesci Beatdown - Casino" even for me it is a bit too gruesome to post here.)

    Doesn’t quite have the same feel, does it? Baseball bats are used quite often to bludgeon a victim to death, but we would look foolish if we called them “weapons” when we passed the rack at Sports Authority. Why? Because more bats are swung at baseballs than people, despite their origin as one of mankind’s first weapons, the club.


    Similarly, the first use of a self-powered vehicle was to move artillery. In light of the tens of thousands of deaths by automobile, are they weapons or vehicles?

    Firearms were originally designed as a battle implement. Their first purpose was to inflict human casualties; there is no argument to that fact. Today that is simply not the case - the vast majority of ammunition is produced and fired peacefully at paper targets. It is almost always incorrect to call pistols, rifles, and shotgun “weapons.”

    So, why do some people insist on calling all firearms “weapons” in any situation? The answer is simple: Brainwashing.

    Fear sells newspapers and keeps attention. This comes from our primal need to survive. On the 6 o’clock news, we all keep track of the Ebola virus. We want to know if it’s close to us. Some might tune out for sports and weather, but we will all have a universal interest in staying alive. Media knows that, so they provoke that emotional reaction the most natural and effective way possible–by implementing fear.

    Here's the link to original article:

    http://badgerlakeobserver.blogspot.c...t-weapons.html

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    While cerrtainly sympathetic and in agreement I thiink this will remain a preaching to the choir deal.

    If I don't have my sidearm and have my EDC pocket knife in my pocket, I am unarmed as far as I am concerned as my pocket knife is just a tool,, but I know that if a cop ever asked if I had any weapons and I said no followed by my pocket knife being discovered that LEO would beg to differ on that nomenclature.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Although I can defend myself with any object at hand,(hammer, pencil, kitchen knife), the tool I rely upon is my weapon. I have been a Soldier all my life and I have almost always been armed. The tool at my side, my pistol, is there to protect me and mine. It is a weapon, it is a deterrent, and it is a paperweight until it is in my hand. To me it is a weapon.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    An idiotic article that would not exist if not for the internet.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    How about...gat, burner, 9, chopper, heater, piece, roscoe, boom stick...better?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I disagree with the control of the use of the word, "weapon". A weapon is any device which may be used to extend the ability of humans to inflict damage upon others or their property, either in a defensive or offensive mode. This can be anything from a stick or limb or rock to a firearm or a tank or an aircraft. Basically the sky's the limit with this term. There are different classes of weapons as well. Bladed weapons, ones that bludgeon, ones that launch a projectile towards others, and ones that are planted or dropped or fired that explode when needed (certainly there are more).

    My knives can be weapons or tools or simply display items and the same can be said about my firearms. How I use these devices will determine whether or not they are one thing or another. One could say that they are intrinsic weapons but then again, one could also say that they are intrinsic tools or intrinsic display items. Drills, hammers, screwdrivers, hoes, shovels, etc. can all fit this same mold. If I was suddenly attacked by someone while digging a hole in my yard, my shovel would very quickly go from being a tool to a weapon if I had nothing else on or about my person to employ in my defense.

    So a weapon can really be most anything which extends our ability to project force either in our defense or as an offensive move.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 10-27-2014 at 03:22 PM.
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    Well, what other purpose is a gun for, if not to kill/harm/maim something?

    Poking holes in paper? While that's a great hobby for many people, that is, in it's very essence, practice for poking holes in living things.

    A firearm is explicitly manufactured to be used in the killing/harming/maiming of something. It can be used in target practice and shooting competitions, but those events are distinctly the same as it's intended purpose. A firearm isn't used to hammer a nail, or level a picture frame. It's not designed to input characters in a computer. It's designed to fire a projectile towards a target and destroy the target. Non-lethal versions of firearms have the same purpose- to be fired at a target.

    A bat is designed to hit a ball. It can be used with various types of balls. It can be used for other things like games, or car body adjustment. Or as a weapon. I suppose one could make an argument that a bat is derived from one of the most basic of weapons; a club.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Yeah sorry, but a gun is a weapon, and this post is poorly written. I didn't even bother reading the article.

    "A weapon, arm, or armament is any device used in order to inflict damage or harm to living beings, structures, or systems. Weapons are used to increase the efficacy and efficiency of activities such as hunting, crime, law enforcement, self-defense, and warfare. In a broader context, weapons may be construed to include anything used to gain a strategic, material or mental advantage over an adversary."

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crstrode View Post
    http://badgerlakeobserver.blogspot.c...t-weapons.html


    Derek Jeter recently hit his last home run. The baseball bat he used will become a piece of famous sports history. People will travel from everywhere to see it and take pictures of their children standing next to it. Now, how about that same sporting equipment used in Joe Pesci’s last scene in Casino? Or by Robert DeNiro in The Untouchables?

    (go ahead - Google "Joe Pesci Beatdown - Casino" even for me it is a bit too gruesome to post here.)

    Doesn’t quite have the same feel, does it? Baseball bats are used quite often to bludgeon a victim to death, but we would look foolish if we called them “weapons” when we passed the rack at Sports Authority. Why? Because more bats are swung at baseballs than people, despite their origin as one of mankind’s first weapons, the club.


    Similarly, the first use of a self-powered vehicle was to move artillery. In light of the tens of thousands of deaths by automobile, are they weapons or vehicles?

    Firearms were originally designed as a battle implement. Their first purpose was to inflict human casualties; there is no argument to that fact. Today that is simply not the case - the vast majority of ammunition is produced and fired peacefully at paper targets. It is almost always incorrect to call pistols, rifles, and shotgun “weapons.”

    So, why do some people insist on calling all firearms “weapons” in any situation? The answer is simple: Brainwashing.

    Fear sells newspapers and keeps attention. This comes from our primal need to survive. On the 6 o’clock news, we all keep track of the Ebola virus. We want to know if it’s close to us. Some might tune out for sports and weather, but we will all have a universal interest in staying alive. Media knows that, so they provoke that emotional reaction the most natural and effective way possible–by implementing fear.

    Here's the link to original article:

    http://badgerlakeobserver.blogspot.c...t-weapons.html
    It's a good point about fear. It happens a lot. Headlines such as "Armed man invades White House!!!". Come to find out some loony who was convinced the sky was falling hopped the fence and went inside the white house. Oh yeah he had a 2 inch key chain knife in his pocket.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Weapons may be defensive.

    Ultimately, the RKBA is about the citizen's right to keep and bear weapons – firearms being the obvious possible point of contention.

    I won't mince words, and I won't dance about that point. There is nothing objectionable about a free man possessing weapons (so long as he does not commit aggression); indeed, it is a mark of a free society that he may do so.

    The 2A would be worthless if all it protected was the right to own paper-punchers.
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-27-2014 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    It's a good point about fear. It happens a lot. Headlines such as "Armed man invades White House!!!". Come to find out some loony who was convinced the sky was falling hopped the fence and went inside the white house. Oh yeah he had a 2 inch key chain knife in his pocket.
    yeah, ive been seeing those articles "man armed with a KNIFE!!!" right, he had a little folding knife in his pocket. He didnt have it in his hand trying to slash someone. Just a tool he carried everyday.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Well, what other purpose is a gun for, if not to kill/harm/maim something?

    Poking holes in paper? While that's a great hobby for many people, that is, in it's very essence, practice for poking holes in living things.

    A firearm is explicitly manufactured to be used in the killing/harming/maiming of something. It can be used in target practice and shooting competitions, but those events are distinctly the same as it's intended purpose. A firearm isn't used to hammer a nail, or level a picture frame. It's not designed to input characters in a computer. It's designed to fire a projectile towards a target and destroy the target. Non-lethal versions of firearms have the same purpose- to be fired at a target.

    A bat is designed to hit a ball. It can be used with various types of balls. It can be used for other things like games, or car body adjustment. Or as a weapon. I suppose one could make an argument that a bat is derived from one of the most basic of weapons; a club.
    Tell that to the 3-gun guy who just spent $3k on his AR, $3k on his pistol, and $3k on his shotgun. All special firearms that will never be used to kill anything more living than paper. I'm not saying ALL guns are made to be 3-gun competition guns, but there are several guns that are purpose built and "explicitly manufactured" to be sporting equipment. A fully tricked out unlimited class race gun is not designed to kill anything. It's designed to compete in sporting events. Better still, do some research on unlimited class bench rest rifles. Believe me, those rifles are explicitly built to put little tiny holes VERY close together on nothing but paper at a long distance away.



    And to be frank, a baseball bat is really just a derivation of a club. Clubs are, and have been, made with no other intention but to hit people. So while baseball bats may not be, the over riding category of clubs are. So in reality, the sporting use of a purpose built gun is not really that different from the sporting use of the purpose built club (or bat).

    Summed up, in the category of guns there ARE some that are designed and made for the sole purpose of being sports equipment and not to kill. And in the category of clubs, there ARE some that are designed and made for the sole purpose of being sports equipment and not to kill.
    Last edited by mobiushky; 10-29-2014 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    If I don't have my sidearm and have my EDC pocket knife in my pocket, I am unarmed as far as I am concerned as my pocket knife is just a tool,, but I know that if a cop ever asked if I had any weapons and I said no followed by my pocket knife being discovered that LEO would beg to differ on that nomenclature.
    In most states, folding pocket knives with blades three or four inches are considered tools, not weapons. Unless you're filleting a fish, there's very little I can think of where my my smallest pocket knife, with it's 1-3/4" blade wouldn't be perfectly adequate.

    Then again, that doesn't stop me from grabbing an 8" kitchen knife or my 6-1/4" commando knife to open mail.

    My perspective is that anything can be used as a deadly weapon, including playdoh. In the same vein, anything commonly known as a "weapon" can instead be used as a tool. Consider Operation Plowshare, "the development of techniques to use nuclear explosives for peaceful construction purposes." It ran from 1961 to 1977, when it was cancelled, more from public reaction than any inherent dangers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Tell that to the 3-gun guy who just spent $3k on his AR, $3k on his pistol, and $3k on his shotgun. All special firearms that will never be used to kill anything more living than paper. I'm not saying ALL guns are made to be 3-gun competition guns, but there are several guns that are purpose built and "explicitly manufactured" to be sporting equipment. A fully tricked out unlimited class race gun is not designed to kill anything. It's designed to compete in sporting events. Better still, do some research on unlimited class bench rest rifles. Believe me, those rifles are explicitly built to put little tiny holes VERY close together on nothing but paper at a long distance away.



    And to be frank, a baseball bat is really just a derivation of a club. Clubs are, and have been, made with no other intention but to hit people. So while baseball bats may not be, the over riding category of clubs are. So in reality, the sporting use of a purpose built gun is not really that different from the sporting use of the purpose built club (or bat).

    Summed up, in the category of guns there ARE some that are designed and made for the sole purpose of being sports equipment and not to kill. And in the category of clubs, there ARE some that are designed and made for the sole purpose of being sports equipment and not to kill.
    Point. You're missing it.

    I covered target shooting. It's objective is not any different in the usage of a firearm. People, paper. It's the same.

    What were/are firearms created to do? To give people the upper hand in battle (whether defensive or offensive). That's it. That is the intended purpose of a firearm. The derivatives of the firearm that you speak of come well after the intended purpose. And it's not even going that far, they're still used to punch holes. The practicality of the firearm is not in question. The explicit and underlying purpose is.

    For a bat, while it might be a distant relative of a club, it's designed for the sport of baseball. A golf club for golf. Rackets for sports like tennis, badminton, or pickleball. These components are used for sporting purposes first and foremost. They can also be used as weapons if the need arose. Bowling pins or bowling balls.

    Show me what other purpose a gun is used for other than punching holes in things. Something relevant, not like the weight bench that's also a clothes hanger.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    What were/are firearms created to do? To give people the upper hand in battle (whether defensive or offensive). That's it. That is the intended purpose of a firearm.
    The only purpose is to put tiny pieces of metal(or something) downrange, at a high rate of speed. What you aim at(not necessarily hit) is up to the shooter.


    I like this comment from the Operation Plowshare article.......
    The radioactive blast debris from 839 U.S. underground nuclear test explosions remains buried in-place and has been judged impractical to remove by the DOE's Nevada Site Office.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I like this comment from the Operation Plowshare article.......
    The radioactive blast debris from 839 U.S. underground nuclear test explosions remains buried in-place and has been judged impractical to remove by the DOE's Nevada Site Office.
    Yup. And highly unlikely to impact anyone. Ever.
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