georg jetson
Regular Member
What evidence will you accept?
What argument?
Edit - Oh... I think you refer to your post #18. Sorry.
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Two more "starts" of Sons of Guns TV show arrested !
- Thread starter davidmcbeth
- Start date
What evidence will you accept?
What argument?
Edit - Oh... I think you refer to your post #18. Sorry.
georg jetson
Regular Member
+1
Never spank/hit a child out of anger. Emotions must be under control to effect proper discipline. It's this controlled manner of disciplining a child that makes them realize that there will be consequenses for their actions and not simply because they made someone angry.
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
scooter348,
Aside from the stress level (as I tried to "behave" as per official pansy PC school district policy DESPITE how some kids MISbehaved -- with impunity) it got so bad I finally had to get out of teaching before someone got hurt, either me or a "student," as I ran a no-nonsense classroom and wouldn't tolerate misbehavior (or be cowed by threats). Didn't care if *I* got hurt (and yes, teachers get threats and are sometimes assaulted, or worse) -- and of course, likely fired -- but the kid might care if he/she (yes, some of the gangster girls were in your face, too) got hurt, or their sorry excuses for "parents" would care, and be all over you and the school district. So I got out, while I could on my own terms. As mentioned, teachers are on their own in the schools: MOST Admin just are there to "play the game" -- tread water, be "best buddies" with the kids, make NO waves in the great placid lake of mediocrity that is education in America nowadays -- and survive until they can get a nice retirement package. That's it.
Anyway, for ALL concerned, it was time for me to leave. As mentioned, it was a bittersweet in that when I drove by schools afterwards I wished I could have stayed (and gone up through the "ranks" even into Admin, and eventually make a full career out of it) but at the same time, I felt lots of RELIEF driving by a school knowing that I didn't HAVE to go in to work there anymore!
[Disclaimer: MOST of the kids in the Public Schools are pretty decent, but there are WAY too many troublemakers nowadays (zero tolerance policies for everything EXCEPT student misbehavior) than ruin it for everyone else, but the losers MUST be in school as per the law, even though while there, they cause grief for everyone (teachers, staff and other students). And the schools WANT them there so they get Federal $$ -- which they don't if the kid(s) are NOT there, so its the $$ that come first, not the kids' misbehavior.]
As for my "new career," thanks...but it wasn't too long afterwards that I just decided to quit (actually, I just gave up and left) the rat-race completely so I retired early (@ 55)...and doing quite well now doing absolutely nothing (unless I want to). Income is way more then I need, and I can live very comfortably pretty much anywhere I want (except, sadly, VERY expensive Switzerland, which doesn't want riff-raff moving there). So I move about every 4 years now, mainly from one state to another (as my health continues to allow). Can't complain AT ALL!
As for your wife, and as I've "counseled" teachers before if they aren't liking their jobs that much: They don't HAVE to get out of education...there are other options:
-- Teaching at a different school where there's better management (even if you lose seniority when you request a transfer vs. the school district making you transfer and you keep your seniority).
-- Teaching at a different grade level (many teachers find Middle School/Junior High kids to be the worst).
-- Teaching in a different/better school district (if a city has more than one ISD).
-- Teaching in a different state.*
-- Teaching at a private, military or parochial school (less discipline problems, if any).
...so, your wife could still stay in education but just be elsewhere -- in a better/less stressful place/school.
Or possibly in a different program within the SAME school: A high school Honors Calculus class was one of the best I ever had, as the "no-nonsense/we're here to learn/keep a 4.0 GPA/looking to their future" students were expecting to become doctors, engineers or some other serious high-income professional, and were no discipline problems whatsoever -- an oasis in a desert wasteland of dumbed-down (yet inflated grades) dysfunctional chaos most public schools are.
Whatever, Good luck & best wishes to you & yours...
* Research state public school systems BEFORE choosing one! For one example, avoid the Public Schools in Hawaii (a very heavily-leaning Democrat/Liberal/Welfare state) as they are consistently low-rated. MOST parents (who can afford to) do NOT send their kids to public school in HI, but instead seek out private/parochial schools (HI has many because of the sorry public schools there) -- such as the "elitist" Punahou School, where Obama went. Punahou tuition is almost like going to a university (presently $20,700/year, grades K-12) so private schools are expensive...but lots of kids go private/parochial due to the sorry public schools (low learning/expectation levels and cultural/racial issues, too). Consequently, families that move to Hawaii need to consider their "education budget" which is NEWS to most of them as they aren't aware of the HI Public School system's low ratings, so it could be a pretty HEFTY hit on their family budgets (and HI can be expensive in other ways, too, but that can be mitigated big-time if you're savvy). I know most parents DO research how good/bad the Public Schools are when they consider moving somewhere, but in HI it's a given you send your kids to a private school if you can afford to do so.
Aside from the stress level (as I tried to "behave" as per official pansy PC school district policy DESPITE how some kids MISbehaved -- with impunity) it got so bad I finally had to get out of teaching before someone got hurt, either me or a "student," as I ran a no-nonsense classroom and wouldn't tolerate misbehavior (or be cowed by threats). Didn't care if *I* got hurt (and yes, teachers get threats and are sometimes assaulted, or worse) -- and of course, likely fired -- but the kid might care if he/she (yes, some of the gangster girls were in your face, too) got hurt, or their sorry excuses for "parents" would care, and be all over you and the school district. So I got out, while I could on my own terms. As mentioned, teachers are on their own in the schools: MOST Admin just are there to "play the game" -- tread water, be "best buddies" with the kids, make NO waves in the great placid lake of mediocrity that is education in America nowadays -- and survive until they can get a nice retirement package. That's it.
Anyway, for ALL concerned, it was time for me to leave. As mentioned, it was a bittersweet in that when I drove by schools afterwards I wished I could have stayed (and gone up through the "ranks" even into Admin, and eventually make a full career out of it) but at the same time, I felt lots of RELIEF driving by a school knowing that I didn't HAVE to go in to work there anymore!
[Disclaimer: MOST of the kids in the Public Schools are pretty decent, but there are WAY too many troublemakers nowadays (zero tolerance policies for everything EXCEPT student misbehavior) than ruin it for everyone else, but the losers MUST be in school as per the law, even though while there, they cause grief for everyone (teachers, staff and other students). And the schools WANT them there so they get Federal $$ -- which they don't if the kid(s) are NOT there, so its the $$ that come first, not the kids' misbehavior.]
As for my "new career," thanks...but it wasn't too long afterwards that I just decided to quit (actually, I just gave up and left) the rat-race completely so I retired early (@ 55)...and doing quite well now doing absolutely nothing (unless I want to). Income is way more then I need, and I can live very comfortably pretty much anywhere I want (except, sadly, VERY expensive Switzerland, which doesn't want riff-raff moving there). So I move about every 4 years now, mainly from one state to another (as my health continues to allow). Can't complain AT ALL!
As for your wife, and as I've "counseled" teachers before if they aren't liking their jobs that much: They don't HAVE to get out of education...there are other options:
-- Teaching at a different school where there's better management (even if you lose seniority when you request a transfer vs. the school district making you transfer and you keep your seniority).
-- Teaching at a different grade level (many teachers find Middle School/Junior High kids to be the worst).
-- Teaching in a different/better school district (if a city has more than one ISD).
-- Teaching in a different state.*
-- Teaching at a private, military or parochial school (less discipline problems, if any).
...so, your wife could still stay in education but just be elsewhere -- in a better/less stressful place/school.
Or possibly in a different program within the SAME school: A high school Honors Calculus class was one of the best I ever had, as the "no-nonsense/we're here to learn/keep a 4.0 GPA/looking to their future" students were expecting to become doctors, engineers or some other serious high-income professional, and were no discipline problems whatsoever -- an oasis in a desert wasteland of dumbed-down (yet inflated grades) dysfunctional chaos most public schools are.
Whatever, Good luck & best wishes to you & yours...
* Research state public school systems BEFORE choosing one! For one example, avoid the Public Schools in Hawaii (a very heavily-leaning Democrat/Liberal/Welfare state) as they are consistently low-rated. MOST parents (who can afford to) do NOT send their kids to public school in HI, but instead seek out private/parochial schools (HI has many because of the sorry public schools there) -- such as the "elitist" Punahou School, where Obama went. Punahou tuition is almost like going to a university (presently $20,700/year, grades K-12) so private schools are expensive...but lots of kids go private/parochial due to the sorry public schools (low learning/expectation levels and cultural/racial issues, too). Consequently, families that move to Hawaii need to consider their "education budget" which is NEWS to most of them as they aren't aware of the HI Public School system's low ratings, so it could be a pretty HEFTY hit on their family budgets (and HI can be expensive in other ways, too, but that can be mitigated big-time if you're savvy). I know most parents DO research how good/bad the Public Schools are when they consider moving somewhere, but in HI it's a given you send your kids to a private school if you can afford to do so.
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davidmcbeth
Banned
Not everyone approves of spanking THEIR kids ... but how many kids have you seen behaving and think "That kid needs to get spanked!"
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
A convincing argument that non-subservient individuals (or even most individuals) are capable to internalizing corporal punishment as being fundamentally their fault.
Human psychology just doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. If you hit me, for any reason whatever, the entirety of my emotional response is externalized and directed against you. I certainly do not stop to ask whether it was somehow my fault that you hit me, and neither does any other normal, healthy human.
I might act in such a way as to avoid you hitting me further, but that's not the same thing as meaningfully believing that it was my fault that you hit me.
Basically, hitting people pisses them off, and you don't convince people to adopt your mode of thinking by ******* them off. The most you can ever hope for is obedience while they believe you're watching.
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sorry your analogy is flawed since you are using your adult perceptions(non-subservient individuals, my emotional response, hitting people, hitting me, etc.,) verses a child's, (who is in fact subservient to their caregiver for their existence) perceptions whose psychology isn't that mature nor biased so children can, in fact, understand if punishment, corporal or otherwise, is administered immediately after an incident, so it shows they are being held accountable for their actions. the caveat is when punishment is delayed 'till your father gets home' then the child has difficulty associating their punishment with the incident. remember our prisons are filled with individuals who truly believe they are innocent!!
one other concept most fail to recognize, is punishment is for an accountable activity ONLY instead of being held over the child's head forever. there are some caregivers who once a child makes a mistake and punishment is administered, make the child feel they must earn their caregiver's love all over again. caregiver's must show unconditional love and respect for the child as they make mistakes and grow to adulthood.
as adults, most, most being the operative word, normally understand if you screw up at work, you will be fired or severely reprimanded w/implications affecting promotion(s) etc. military services uses the latter quite efficiently in maintaining order through non-judicial punishment, e.g., article 15 proceedings administered by the CC. those actions fail, military members are out processed w/less than honorable discharges which affect their lives till their death.
ipse
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marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Yeah, except I (sort of) remember being a child. So, no, I don't think the "analogy" is flawed. There's never been a point in my life where I responded positively to authority or punishment, or accorded feigned respect on demand, etc.
My parents spanked me, but very infrequently. Regardless of how sparingly used, I cannot remember a single misdeed on my own part to prompt corporal punishment. All I can remember is crying or being angry (depending on age) as a result.
Children are dependent on their parents, but I believe it's a mistake to teach them to be subservient to anybody, including parents. You should, as soon as possible, begin teaching them (by example) to be responsible, for reasons they can justify (not out of fear).
I just don't buy it. Plenty of people are raised with corporal punishment and turn out like crap. That correlation is every bit as strong, from what I've seen. If kids turn out well, it's because their parents paid attention, provided instruction when needed, and set a good example on a consistent basis. That is the sine qua non of good parenting; the use corporal punishment is about as relevant as the brand of shoes the parents buy.
No, I don't think so. If I was spanked, it was always immediately, never "when my father gets home". As I said, I don't have a single association between an instance of being spanked and a misdeed on my part -- although I do remember being spanked.
Still don't buy it.
So, do any of you actually remember an instance when you got spanked or belted or whatever, and that itself was the motivating factor to internalize your own responsibility?
to start out your rebuttal in the first sentence with: quote I (sort of) remember being a child unquote proves my point that children lack the ability to process the environment around them. additionally, you state you did nothing wrong yet received CP, I am sure if we consulted your caregivers they would tell a different tale, and as stated, there are plenty of folk in prison who profess their status of being not doing anything wrong and are unjustly being punished.
sorry, but when you emotionally state: quote: plenty of ppl are raised with CP and turned out like crap. unquote is this 50% of the population (or how much of the population per se) who have turned out like crap, then I am sure there is a significant percentage or gaggle of ppl who experienced corporal punishment who have turned out to be law biding citizens assisting society in their adulthood.
WAIT...you yourself admit to being administered CP so you have a choice of being in the CRAP side of your equation or the contributing adult to society side!
I am more concerned with your opening statement: quote: There's never been a point in my life where I responded positively to authority....unquote!!
ipse
georg jetson
Regular Member
Solus has pointed out that your analogy is flawed, but let me add:
There is a correct way to use corporal punishment and an incorrect way.
Initially, when a child is very young, it doesn't matter that the child believes that it's their fault. It only matters that it does what it's told so that it doesn't injure itself or others. As children grow older they need to be taught things have consequences without actually experiencing the "real" consequences like jail, living on the street etc.
In general discipline is necessary to teach a child how to become an adult. Initially, children respond to very little, having not learned the language, physical pain is the most basic teaching tool. As they get older, higher forms of discipline can be used such as deprivation of toys, playtime etc. However, the higher forms of discipline are reinforced with corporal punishment. Little Jimmy gets a time-out for failing to listen. However, he insists on playing Xbox while punished. Little Jimmy gets his tail whipped and experiences pain he would choose to give up the toy for. Next time little JImmy will wait out his punishment time without touching the Xbox.
Spanking the child doesn't make them think anything other than "If I don't listen, then It'll hurt.. a lot!" Spanking them gets their attention so you can use high forms of both discipline and rewards to get them to understand. They must listen in order for this to happen.
Anecdotally speaking, I did a decent job of disciplining my 2 children using corporal punishment as part of my strategy. Both are very libertarian, and one open carries...
I don't want to use the "appeal to authority" argument, but I believe once you have children to discipline, you'll understand the complicated dynamics involved and the importance of getting them to listen to you.The biggest problem I see parents having is that there seems to be no place for them to learn how to use corporal punishment appropriately.
Brian D.
Regular Member
Anybody else notice how Stephanie Hayden looked in that mug shot? Can you say 'meth bugs', boys and girls?
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Your reasoning is slipping. I did not state nor imply (nor do I believe) that corporal punishment causes kids to turn out like "crap" (although abuse certainly does, and the line isn't always clear to me). In fact, I asserted that it's "about as relevant as what brand of shoes the parents buy".
My point is that there is, in my experience, a similar degree of correlation between corporal punishment and turning out good, and between corporal punishment and turning out bad. Therefore, corporal punishment would not seem to be a causal factor.
On the other hand, the degree of correlation between involved parenting which teaches and shows by example is far greater than either of the aforementioned correlations. Therefore, I submit that this is a (the?) causal factor.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
I am concerned with those who do respect and respond positively to authority. A free man needs no "authority" to tell him to act rightly. A free man ought to be sovereign unto himself.
I find "authority" (especially of the self-declared sort) to be, in general, a detriment to the human condition. But then, I'm an anarchist.
"Authority" is for what some like to call "sheeple".
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Solus has pointed out that your analogy is flawed, but let me add:
There is a correct way to use corporal punishment and an incorrect way.
Initially, when a child is very young, it doesn't matter that the child believes that it's their fault. It only matters that it does what it's told so that it doesn't injure itself or others. As children grow older they need to be taught things have consequences without actually experiencing the "real" consequences like jail, living on the street etc.
In general discipline is necessary to teach a child how to become an adult. Initially, children respond to very little, having not learned the language, physical pain is the most basic teaching tool. As they get older, higher forms of discipline can be used such as deprivation of toys, playtime etc. However, the higher forms of discipline are reinforced with corporal punishment. Little Jimmy gets a time-out for failing to listen. However, he insists on playing Xbox while punished. Little Jimmy gets his tail whipped and experiences pain he would choose to give up the toy for. Next time little JImmy will wait out his punishment time without touching the Xbox.
Spanking the child doesn't make them think anything other than "If I don't listen, then It'll hurt.. a lot!" Spanking them gets their attention so you can use high forms of both discipline and rewards to get them to understand. They must listen in order for this to happen.
Anecdotally speaking, I did a decent job of disciplining my 2 children using corporal punishment as part of my strategy. Both are very libertarian, and one open carries...
The biggest problem I see parents having is that there seems to be no place for them to learn how to use corporal punishment appropriately.
You've done a good job of arguing that corporal punishment is not detrimental, but then I haven't argued that it is.
What you haven't done is convince me that it's a sine non qua of good parenting. At best, you've convinced me it's a convenient tool for those who lack the energy or motivation to find alternate, more effective methods of getting their children's attention. And I'm not about to propose we use government to ban that tool. I'm just saying it's lazy and ultimately ineffective in the long term.
Frankly, I think the appeal to the authority of having been a kid is about as strong as the appeal to authority of being a parent. Reason being, I'm absolutely certain that my parents frequently misinterpreted what was going on in my head, and I suspect all parents do.
:lol: I had a similar thought.
No judgment though on my part.
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i'm sorry which post am i suppose to believe as you contradict yourself all in a matter of hours. sine qua non parenting includes discipline imposed by CP imposed to a child by a caregiver who is emotionally in control of themselves to hold a child accountable for their actions.
ipse
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Seriously?
All I did was point out a correlation. Moreover, the whole point of my argument is that correlation does not imply causation.
Is that really so difficult for you? If you can't engage like an adult, this conversation is over.
your inital statement is not a correlation, is it?
secondly, i find it quite interesting , the self professed anarchist who states they have never responded positively to authority at any point in his life, must resort to condensening comments towards someone who is engaged in a discussion w/them as well as then threaten to end said conversation.
sorry, that is not anarchist type behaviour being exhibited but your entire series of bravado rant(s) is just you showing your learned oppositional defiant behaviour response! you may self justify your current actions and behaviours behind your use of the term anarchist to impress others, however, it won't fly with this adult who knows better!
ipse
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
I don't know what you think that statement has to do with anything, as all I said is that it's "not necessary" to "belt kids".
Later on I pointed out that many kids raised with corporal punishment turn out like "crap", but I didn't suggest that this was because of corporal punishment -- only that it failed to rectify the child.
In case you're confused, that's the correlation in question (some kids raised with corporal punishment turn out "like crap"). I posit it as being equal to the correlation between corporal punishment and turning out well, from which I conclude that corporal punishment is "about as relevant as what brand of shoes the parents buy".
This was all explicitly clear in my posts, which means it's blatantly disingenuous of you to claim contradiction on my part. Or, it's lazy reading. I'll be charitable and assume the latter.
:lol: What on earth do you think you're talking about?
I've had enough people on this forum put words in my mouth due to their own lazy reading to last a lifetime. When I debate I do so in good faith; I'm under no obligation to continue discussions with those who do not.
The simple fact is you attempted to create a "gotcha!" moment by trying to show that I had contradicted myself, when in fact I've been quite consistent. You deserve condescension, at least, for this.
Ultimately, this shows the weakness of your position (that you resort to weak tricks instead of making persuasive arguments), as does your continuing use ad hominem attacks, such your latest attempt to psychoanalyze me based on my lack of patience for games.
ETA: Re-reading my reply, and given the poster's history, it's clear I'm being trolled. I'm done here. Apologies to georg, with whom I've enjoyed a good debate or two in the past.
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Maverick9
Regular Member
I'm a pretty big guy. Would you be OK with me using those methods on you? Just askin... (peacesign)
marshaul, of course you have seen enough in your life time, haven't you? yet, this phenomenon, which continues in your life and it is always due to someone else's misconstruing or misinterpreting or misreading or not listening closely enough to what you are saying ~ never you is it? i bet this type of scenario(s) has been going on since you were in early adolescence, not just in adulthood, huh! i am willing to bet it is quite frustrating for you isn't it?
what you perceive as something i did, uh, oh ya ~ 'i had a gotcha moment', was in fact your own doing as evidenced by your entanglement in your own posts.
further, as for you alluding to the concept since you feel other forum members have, in the past, 'put words into your mouth', and therefore by your perceived association toward me, cuz you brought it up in an apparent attempt to divert from your foible(s) and to portray yourself as the 'oh my goodness i'm being unmercifully being attacked' persona.
i believe you will discern no where have i misquoted your posts, therefore, it seems i have failed to 'put words into your mouth' at all!
throwing in the latin is a nice touch tho, again, not impressive enough and makes you sound pretentious...
finally, again w/the condescending diversion to discredit me and name calling which is a style you consistently engage in but might wish to change tactics since you cry 'troll' way too much in your posts, especially whenever you believe are being picked on, er, challenged and the tactic gets tiresome and does show you in your true light.
ipse
what you perceive as something i did, uh, oh ya ~ 'i had a gotcha moment', was in fact your own doing as evidenced by your entanglement in your own posts.
further, as for you alluding to the concept since you feel other forum members have, in the past, 'put words into your mouth', and therefore by your perceived association toward me, cuz you brought it up in an apparent attempt to divert from your foible(s) and to portray yourself as the 'oh my goodness i'm being unmercifully being attacked' persona.
i believe you will discern no where have i misquoted your posts, therefore, it seems i have failed to 'put words into your mouth' at all!
throwing in the latin is a nice touch tho, again, not impressive enough and makes you sound pretentious...
finally, again w/the condescending diversion to discredit me and name calling which is a style you consistently engage in but might wish to change tactics since you cry 'troll' way too much in your posts, especially whenever you believe are being picked on, er, challenged and the tactic gets tiresome and does show you in your true light.
ipse
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