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Thread: Protecting Civil Liberties During Quarantine in Public Health Emergencies.

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    Protecting Civil Liberties During Quarantine in Public Health Emergencies.

    American Bar Association Law Practice Division Law Practice Today Webzine FEATURE
    Protecting Civil Liberties During Quarantine and Isolation in Public Health Emergencies

    I. Introduction

    In July, 2006, doctors in Phoenix, Arizona diagnosed Robert Daniels with extreme multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis (XDR-TB)1. After visiting a local convenience store without a mask, public health officials obtained a court order to involuntarily commit Daniels to a Maricopa County Medical Center lockdown ward for treatment and to prevent him from transmitting his illness to others. Hermetically isolated, he was strip-searched and prohibited from venturing outside, exercising, and receiving visits from family.2 On May 31, 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against Maricopa County, Arizona, on behalf of Daniels for the deplorable way he was treated - [l]ike jailed inmates accused of crimes3." While states have the authority to quarantine and isolate individuals with dangerous and communicable diseases in order to protect the public's health, they also have a duty to respect individual civil liberties4. This article discusses states' roles in protecting individuals' civil liberties while simultaneously effectuating quarantine and isolation orders to protect the public's health.

    [More...Citations to case law.]

    http://www.americanbar.org/publicati...ergencies.html
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-26-2014 at 09:04 PM.
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    All sounds good ... but the existence of the cases indicate that the gov't will ignore our freedoms whenever it wants.

    Want proof? See what NJ, NY, and IL are doing now.

    The gov't says a lot of things that they know are just lip service.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-26-2014 at 10:37 PM.

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    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...-nasty-things/

    ^^ a poll on the subject matter ... 88% in favor of forced quarantine


    What do you expect? People are easily scared.

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    Look to the source. Fool, SLimbaugh lyte.
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    As a first responder, I understand the risk I face when coming into contact with a suspected patient with ebola. Due to the policies of the department I work for, I could possibly be quarantined for up to 21 days if the patient tests positive for the ebols virus. Do I like this policy? No. I won't be able to see, or visit, or hold my family members during this time. Do I understand why there is a need for this policy? Absolutely. This is a small price to pay to insure I don't pass this virus on to other citizens I come in contact with, or give it to my family members. I am not buying the government argument of no forced quarantine one bit. If these doctors and nurses can't comprehend the issues, nor follow the directions given to them, then they shouldn't be allowed back into the country. For the nurse to complain her quarantine is "inhumane" is a ludicrous argument and makes her look petty and dumb. This is a potential health crisis, get over your hurt feelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter348 View Post
    As a first responder, I understand the risk I face when coming into contact with a suspected patient with ebola. Due to the policies of the department I work for, I could possibly be quarantined for up to 21 days if the patient tests positive for the ebols virus. Do I like this policy? No. I won't be able to see, or visit, or hold my family members during this time. Do I understand why there is a need for this policy? Absolutely. This is a small price to pay to insure I don't pass this virus on to other citizens I come in contact with, or give it to my family members. I am not buying the government argument of no forced quarantine one bit. If these doctors and nurses can't comprehend the issues, nor follow the directions given to them, then they shouldn't be allowed back into the country. For the nurse to complain her quarantine is "inhumane" is a ludicrous argument and makes her look petty and dumb. This is a potential health crisis, get over your hurt feelings.
    Do some basic research on the nurse in NJ.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rra-Leone.html

    She is not infected, she is being unlawfully imprisoned because of her past geographic locations. Your potential situation is nothing like the nurse's current situation. You need to get over your need to unlawfully imprison folks because of where they traveled.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    The point being, as far as I could understand it, was that
    1 - the patient was instructed in the dangers he presented to the general public
    2 - the patient was instructed in how he could perform most activities without endangering the general public
    3 - the patient was instructed in those activities (in specific and in general) that would endanger the general public and thus should not engage in
    4 - the patient failed/refused to abide by the restrictions placed on him, thus endangering the general public
    5 - the health dept. went to court to ask for an order to quarantine and isolate the patient as a clear and present danger to the general public
    6 - the court system held an adversarial hearing where testimony and evidence was presented by both sides
    7 - the court, after following due process, issued the asked-for order.

    Would someone with greater insight and understanding than I seem to possess please point out to me what civil rights needed protecting?

    Regarding the IL, NJ, and NY blanket quarantine orders, -
    1- there seems not to have been a declaration of any state of emergency
    2 - two of the positive-tested individuals that seem to have driven the knee-jerk responses were presumed, by profession, education, training, and experience, to either know better or ought to have known better than to behave the way they did. The female doctor's behavior is both egregious and frightening.
    3 - the nurse complaining about the conditions of her isolation seems more than anything to feel her sense of entitlement, rather than her civil rights, were "violated".

    I do not support the use of emergency declarations at this point, as I do not see the situation as being sufficiently widespread. However, those of you too young to remember mandatory measles and polio quarantines are encouraged to look them up. Highly contagious diseases that had devasting outcomes that were easily spread. One of the few times that folks remembered history (the Spanish Flu of 1919-21) as well as panicing over the current situation. Those are situations where I would support the issuing of an emergency declaration. Most of the time, however, such an order was not needed because the public imposed quarantine.isolation on ntheir own inititives. (crappiest time off from school evar! No school but could not leave the house and since there was no 24-hour TV on 300 channels I was forced to read all those dull books my parents had collected over the years - stuff like "Treasure Island" and "Ben Hur" and "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" and "Moll Flanders" (it had colored engravings!!) and the 15-volume "History of the Crusades" with all of the engravings of knights in armor hacking up Muslim infidels and destroying whole cities in the most exquisite detail.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ...3 - the nurse complaining about the conditions of her isolation seems more than anything to feel her sense of entitlement, rather than her civil rights, were "violated"....
    You really have no idea what you're talking about on this specific situation, do you.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Do some basic research on the nurse in NJ.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rra-Leone.html

    She is not infected, she is being unlawfully imprisoned because of her past geographic locations. Your potential situation is nothing like the nurse's current situation. You need to get over your need to unlawfully imprison folks because of where they traveled.
    While I understand your unyielding and uncompromisisng stance on a citizens rights, I have to respectfully disagree with your emotionally based argument. Let's look at the facts: She was living in Sierra Leone, which has the second highest number of deaths behind Liberia at almost 4,000. She was working with patients infected with Ebola. This brought her in direct contact with the disease. When she wasn't treating these patients, she was living in a place where the conditions are such that they enhance the spread of the disease. All of these are what the police would call "clues." So while I completely understand your argument about her "false imprisonment", her argument is based on emotion and hurt feelings, nothing more. To think this is a civil liberties issue is a stretch by any means of the imagination. You really need to stop basing your arguments on emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter348 View Post
    While I understand your unyielding and uncompromisisng stance on a citizens rights, I have to respectfully disagree with your emotionally based argument. ...
    No, you do not understand liberty and safeguarding a citizen's rights.

    It has been reported that she has tested negative for the virus twice, yet remains imprisoned. She self reported upon reentry to the US and has conflicting "temperature" data. She was/is not feverish...why does she remain imprisoned?

    Your littany of reasons why she should be/remain imprisoned reeks with emotion which flies in the face of the facts that have been reported.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Fever, pyrexia is a horrible presumptive indicator, particularly with a go/no-go of 100°F a whole half-degree higher than the upper normal range and the creatures measuring it.

    A better presumptive is the originating locale, if with known incident of EVD then 40 days quarantine (that's what the word means) enforced isolation. If one risks the public health then stay away from the public, stay in The Heart of Darkness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No, you do not understand liberty and safeguarding a citizen's rights.

    It has been reported that she has tested negative for the virus twice, yet remains imprisoned. She self reported upon reentry to the US and has conflicting "temperature" data. She was/is not feverish...why does she remain imprisoned?

    Your littany of reasons why she should be/remain imprisoned reeks with emotion which flies in the face of the facts that have been reported.
    You're confusing people with facts. Stop that.

    I think that she has/will file a civil rights complaint...I think I posted a thread on that aspect of her abuse. If they have no reason to believe that she is a danger then they cannot hold her. 4th amendment is such a pesky amendment.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-27-2014 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You really have no idea what you're talking about on this specific situation, do you.
    I said nothing about the legality or appropriateness or social acceptability of her being confined. My only comment was addressing her complaints about the conditions of that confinement. Things such as the ride to the hospital, the lack of social contact, the type and amount of food provided her as well as the manner in which it was provided, etc. (You see, I have been reading more than what was at the link provided. It was my attempt to get as much information as possible so as to make the most elegant conclusion possible under the circumstances.) [Are you even familiar with the concept of "elegant conclusions"?]

    It really would be nice if people could understand that "conditions of confinement" is a matter totally separated from the legality of said confinement. The former is an 8th Amendment type of issue and the latter is a habeus corpus issue.

    Would you like to back to the top and start over, or are you satisfied that you made an emotional leap of irrationality that you wish to have remain as the official record?

    stay safe.
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    Man you guys are silly!
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Man you guys are silly!
    Explain, please.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I said nothing about the legality or appropriateness or social acceptability of her being confined. My only comment was addressing her complaints about the conditions of that confinement. Things such as the ride to the hospital, the lack of social contact, the type and amount of food provided her as well as the manner in which it was provided, etc. (You see, I have been reading more than what was at the link provided. It was my attempt to get as much information as possible so as to make the most elegant conclusion possible under the circumstances.) [Are you even familiar with the concept of "elegant conclusions"?]

    It really would be nice if people could understand that "conditions of confinement" is a matter totally separated from the legality of said confinement. The former is an 8th Amendment type of issue and the latter is a habeus corpus issue.

    Would you like to back to the top and start over, or are you satisfied that you made an emotional leap of irrationality that you wish to have remain as the official record?

    stay safe.
    Bloviate

    Condescending

    How about you not skip over the 4A. All else past that is food for a civil jury to chew on.

    Habeus corpus? I'm a little fuzzy on this one, not saying it don't apply. More than happy to learn something new.

    If her conditions were more agreeable to her, nothing to complain about if you will, she may not have pursued the unlawful imprisonment issue or, she may have been dismissed/ignored all together by the media. I use unlawful imprisonment in the hopes to get some folks to see the crime that the state committed.

    It is odd that she has been released, by Da Gov, prior to the completion of the unlawful 21 day imprisonment...how can this be? Da Gov said she was "obviously ill."

    Miss Hickox had reacted with anger after Mr Christie claimed that she was “obviously ill” when she had tested negative for the disease.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-be-freed.html
    She may yet be deprived of her right to "travel" by her home state. Though it seems she may be agreeable to "self-confinement."

    You keep on focusing on the important stuff.

    I'll stand by my statements.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Explain, please.

    stay safe.
    You're both intelligent thinkers and a couple of my favorite posters here, yet you're both trying to one-up each other as if there is a winner and a loser here. Sure one of you may be right and one may be wrong, but prove it with facts and logic like I know you both are capable! Avoid the shame and condescension, both of you!
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    You're both intelligent thinkers and a couple of my favorite posters here, yet you're both trying to one-up each other as if there is a winner and a loser here. Sure one of you may be right and one may be wrong, but prove it with facts and logic like I know you both are capable! Avoid the shame and condescension, both of you!
    It seems we were both posting about completely different things and one of us was determined to carry on as if we were posting about the same thing.

    The devil is in the details. Paying attention will, most of the time, prevent your crank from getting caught in the wringer. That includes picking up on such subtleties as someone going back to clarify what they are posting about and looking to see how it differes from what someone else posted about. That is, according to the way my mind works, different than oneupsmanship.

    I've had my say. There seems to be little interest in what I said. Amazingly, my feelings were never hurt by that.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Agreed.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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