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Thread: HellsSaints proned at gunpoint in Muskegon

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    HellsSaints proned at gunpoint in Muskegon

    I was just searching YouTube for recent OC videos and saw this one. Did a forum search for hellssaints and didn't see this posted yet. Wow. Crazy. Lawsuits in a handbasket?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_nVJNYh9lE
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I was just searching YouTube for recent OC videos and saw this one. Did a forum search for hellssaints and didn't see this posted yet. Wow. Crazy. Lawsuits in a handbasket?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_nVJNYh9lE
    Long gun carry is off topic here.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    "We encourage you to get a permit"
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Long gun carry is off topic here.
    They were OCing handguns. Edit: just saying.. I'd just ignore any rifles seen or discussed.. There are plenty of handguns properly holstered in the vid. Edit: and some improperly unholstered.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 11-02-2014 at 11:50 PM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    But, but the thugs with the improperly upholstered weapons were all dressed in blue, with goofy shiny things pinned to their chests....go figure? What are the odds?

    /off sarcasm.
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Long gun carry is off topic here.
    Also unfortunate is how most of the OCDO community stills supports this site even after realizing that it doesnt fully support their rights.

    Long guns or pistols, those police officers broke the law. And why is it illegal for us to point guns at officers that are actually breaking the law but when they point them at us when we are NOT breaking the law its ok?
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Also unfortunate is how most of the OCDO community stills supports this site even after realizing that it doesnt fully support their rights.

    Long guns or pistols, those police officers broke the law. And why is it illegal for us to point guns at officers that are actually breaking the law but when they point them at us when we are NOT breaking the law its ok?
    You want a real answer or a BS answer? They are both one in the same.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Long gun carry is off topic here.
    The subject of note isn't LGOC, it's the behavior and acts of the cops. Just because Long Guns happened to be involved in some manner doesn't automatically mean the entire event is off limits to talk about here.
    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 11-03-2014 at 04:36 PM.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    You want a real answer or a BS answer? They are both one in the same.
    I know. More of a fire starter...
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I primarily wanted to know what you all think the likelihood of them winning lawsuits is. I would think very high, especially given the officers' statements.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I know. More of a fire starter...
    Most brandishing laws I have read have some sort of exception for LEO while performing their "duties."

    As for a lawsuit, let me think about it.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I primarily wanted to know what you all think the likelihood of them winning lawsuits is. I would think very high, especially given the officers' statements.
    Anymore lawsuits on this line are usually settled not won or lost. I guess it would be a win for the person with a larger bank account, and a loss for the tax payer. As for the officers it will likely not affect them in the least.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Justice is criminal use of firearms being punished with prison time. Justice will not be getting served.

    As a best case scenario I could reasonably see, there could be an out of court settlement for 4 figures each, probably barely covering lawyer fees. In the mean time we have another legal battle in progress.

    Sure, if one of you guys can hook us up with a wickedly good 1983 lawyer who is sympathetic and eager to work pro bono, I think we'd do it. But even still, in that stunningly unlikely situation, the best case scenario outcome still sucks.

    My preference is to return in greater numbers, and that is what we plan to do.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-03-2014 at 07:02 PM.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I'm only 6 minutes in and my stress level is rising pretty fast. I would not have been as courteous or submissive. I would love to join you on one of these walks. I wish I lived closer.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I would love to join you on one of these walks. I wish I lived closer.
    Do your own, then post up the footage.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I primarily wanted to know what you all think the likelihood of them winning lawsuits is. I would think very high, especially given the officers' statements.
    Winning money? Very likely. Criminal conviction against the officers? More than likely not. We need a criminal conviction. Not a settlement. General settlements include not holding officers liable for their crimes. And that tells me they know what they did, and use the human weakness for large sums of money to make it go away. And until we get a criminal conviction for these actions, it will continue. But, the only way to do that is getting a prosecutor to actually prosecute, getting a jury with balls, and a judge to hand down a harsh sentence.

    Or...

    A police officer to stand up and tell the public that what they are doing is wrong. Like this. In Mr. Buehler's case, the judge has allowed the officers to be held personally liable for their actions.

    And it shouldn't matter the offense. If you are a police officer, the only higher standard that you should be held to is upholding the law. And as such, I believe the punishment should be severe for breaking it. The system is backwards. As said in the video, if we would have drawn our weapons on someone who is possibly committing a crime, we would be in jail.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 11-04-2014 at 08:47 AM.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    This only proves my initial thoughts that the Sergeant was brought in at the end not as a supervisor to the cops, but as a MANAGER for the victims of police brutality. This is why while I realize why you guys chat with them, and I'm sure nerves were shot so that didn't help, and the natural reaction when someone is fearful is to communicate that fear to a perceived reasonable person, I would not have chatted so much with these cops. Statutory law, case law, or call your attorney. Those are the options. Otherwise shut up. No need to go into any more detail, unless you are asked to explain statutory law or case law.

    The Sergeant did a great job diffusing you guys' anger. That's about it. You guys better sue the you know what out of this department and make sure these idiots get their proper education.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    This only proves my initial thoughts that the Sergeant was brought in at the end not as a supervisor to the cops, but as a MANAGER for the victims of police brutality. This is why while I realize why you guys chat with them, and I'm sure nerves were shot so that didn't help, and the natural reaction when someone is fearful is to communicate that fear to a perceived reasonable person, I would not have chatted so much with these cops. Statutory law, case law, or call your attorney. Those are the options. Otherwise shut up. No need to go into any more detail, unless you are asked to explain statutory law or case law.

    The Sergeant did a great job diffusing you guys' anger. That's about it. You guys better sue the you know what out of this department and make sure these idiots get their proper education.
    We are often told do NOT hold court on the street.

    Our own USER, Dan Hawes, says it better = KYBMS = keep your big mouth shut! He is serious too - anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law........even that conversation you had about the law with that nice Sgt.

    Am I being detained? I do not consent to any searches and I invoke my right to be silent. Am I free to go?

    Leave as soon as you are allowed. Either way call your attorney at the earliest opportunity. Hopefully you have had a recorder running.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The best way to get you to stay is to get your ID. The best way to avoid this is carry sterile, unless it is required in your state. I was shocked that one of the carriers was telling people to get a permit because it would make it easier with police confrontations. Horse hockey puck!

    If you want a permit, then get one~~but if you don't have to have it to OC, don't carry it. Then you are not lying to police when you tell them you do not have one on your person.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The best way to get you to stay is to get your ID. The best way to avoid this is carry sterile, unless it is required in your state. I was shocked that one of the carriers was telling people to get a permit because it would make it easier with police confrontations. Horse hockey puck!

    If you want a permit, then get one~~but if you don't have to have it to OC, don't carry it. Then you are not lying to police when you tell them you do not have one on your person.
    I agree 100%

    Also to clarify, though I'd certainly carry with the folks in the vid, I was not there.

    I personally favored the guy with the camera, he talked the least it seemed like, didn't give ID, and repeated his desire to leave throughout the stop
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Telling someone that you don't know in this state that they should start carrying openly without a cpl is dangerous. Carry openly under a cpl without your ID? Sure. But not a smart move for the average person to carry here without a license, too easy to accidentally violate laws.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Telling someone that you don't know in this state that they should start carrying openly without a cpl is dangerous. Carry openly under a cpl without your ID? Sure. But not a smart move for the average person to carry here without a license, too easy to accidentally violate laws.
    Which laws?

    Or do you mean, "piss off the police?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Which laws?

    Or do you mean, "piss off the police?"
    The laws which make it a crime to carry in a bunch of circumstances without a cpl.

    Worth it maybe for a devoted activist, and I'd encourage it. Not so for the average person with less than extreme interest in the subject.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Can you cite those laws? I'm curious.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Can you cite those laws? I'm curious.
    Schools: Open Carry + CPL, see Subsection (5)

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(adg...e=mcl-750-237a

    Other Venues: CPL, or Permission, or LE, Etc

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hxd...e=mcl-750-234d

    Vehicle, see Subsection (2):

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(riz...me=mcl-750-227

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