Norman v. State link to oral arguments here.

California Right To Carry · Dec 19, 2015

district9 said:
Thanks for the info 77zach and California Right To Carry.

77zach, I think your analysis in post 15 is unfortunately spot on.

If there is a "danger" the danger is that the Florida Supreme Court strikes down the Open Carry ban as a violation of its state constitution and ducks the Second Amendment question.

If the court holds that the Open Carry ban does not violate its state constitution then it will have to decide whether or not the Open Carry ban violates the Second Amendment. If it holds that it does not then you have a split with the 7th Circuit and the Illinois Supreme Court. If the court holds that there is a right to carry a handgun concealed in public then you have a split with the California Supreme Court. The more splits there are with Federal circuits and state supreme courts (SCOTUS Rule 10) the more likely it is that SCOTUS will grant Norman's cert petition.

People should hold off on predicting the end of the world until SCOTUS starts rejecting cases which involve a clear split under SCOTUS Rule 10 and even that won't be definitive. Before Heller came along, there was a Rule 10 split between the 9th Circuit and the 5th Circuit courts of appeal and SCOTUS denied cert. When Heller prevailed in the court of appeals the split widened and SCOTUS granted cert.

StogieC · Dec 19, 2015

There is nothing to be lost by attacking the current law. If we lose, we've lost nothing from a practical standpoint... The right has already been infringed. If we win, we gain much. We have already won part of this case. The right to bear arms outside the home is fundamental under the Florida Constitution. That alone is a HUGE win.

davidmcbeth · Dec 19, 2015

StogieC said:
There is nothing to be lost by attacking the current law. If we lose, we've lost nothing from a practical standpoint... The right has already been infringed. If we win, we gain much. We have already won part of this case. The right to bear arms outside the home is fundamental under the Florida Constitution. That alone is a HUGE win.

Well, you would be admitting that a judge could rule on a right ... ie admitting that the government can regulate a right.

One viewpoint....

California Right To Carry · Dec 19, 2015

StogieC said:
There is nothing to be lost by attacking the current law. If we lose, we've lost nothing from a practical standpoint... The right has already been infringed. If we win, we gain much. We have already won part of this case. The right to bear arms outside the home is fundamental under the Florida Constitution. That alone is a HUGE win.

I'm not sure if your comment was directed at my post but that is why I put "danger" in sneer quotes. Norman winning under the Florida Constitution is a huge win as will my win in my California Open Carry lawsuit be a huge win if the court of appeals strikes down the 1967 Black Panther gun ban on 14th Amendment grounds (race) and ducks the Second Amendment question.*

* The court of appeals won't be able to entirely duck the Second Amendment question in my lawsuit because my challenges to the Unloaded Open Carry bans and the licensing laws restricting handgun Open Carry permits to counties with a population of fewer than 200,000 people weren't race based.

77zach · Dec 19, 2015

True, splits may induce the SCOTUS to acknowledge more rights. Norman will loose because fl constitution says "manner" may be regulated, which they will redefine to mean oc can be banned because the 2nd amendment is a 2nd class right, that can be subject to prior restraint, licenses, and fees.

A judges is just a law student that grades his own papers

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district9 · Dec 19, 2015

California Right To Carry said:
If there is a "danger" the danger is that the Florida Supreme Court strikes down the Open Carry ban as a violation of its state constitution and ducks the Second Amendment question.

If the court holds that the Open Carry ban does not violate its state constitution then it will have to decide whether or not the Open Carry ban violates the Second Amendment. If it holds that it does not then you have a split with the 7th Circuit and the Illinois Supreme Court. If the court holds that there is a right to carry a handgun concealed in public then you have a split with the California Supreme Court. The more splits there are with Federal circuits and state supreme courts (SCOTUS Rule 10) the more likely it is that SCOTUS will grant Norman's cert petition.

People should hold off on predicting the end of the world until SCOTUS starts rejecting cases which involve a clear split under SCOTUS Rule 10 and even that won't be definitive. Before Heller came along, there was a Rule 10 split between the 9th Circuit and the 5th Circuit courts of appeal and SCOTUS denied cert. When Heller prevailed in the court of appeals the split widened and SCOTUS granted cert.

I hadn't thought of it that way. If you're right there's a guaranteed split either way. OTOH if the regulation of the right is upheld, how would that play out?

district9 · Dec 19, 2015

StogieC said:
There is nothing to be lost by attacking the current law. If we lose, we've lost nothing from a practical standpoint... The right has already been infringed. If we win, we gain much. We have already won part of this case. The right to bear arms outside the home is fundamental under the Florida Constitution. That alone is a HUGE win.

Florida Carry is doing a great service for Floridians (yes, I'm a member, and yes, I will try to upgrade my membership next year), but there is always a question of use of finite resources. The state has admitted the right is fundamental albeit subject to regulation. I agree that if we win, we gain much. I'm just a little pessimistic about the political leaning of the Florida Supreme Court. Fingers crossed.

district9 · Dec 19, 2015

California Right To Carry said:
I'm not sure if your comment was directed at my post but that is why I put "danger" in sneer quotes. Norman winning under the Florida Constitution is a huge win as will my win in my California Open Carry lawsuit be a huge win if the court of appeals strikes down the 1967 Black Panther gun ban on 14th Amendment grounds (race) and ducks the Second Amendment question.*

* The court of appeals won't be able to entirely duck the Second Amendment question in my lawsuit because my challenges to the Unloaded Open Carry bans and the licensing laws restricting handgun Open Carry permits to counties with a population of fewer than 200,000 people weren't race based.

Are there still active open carry permits in those California counties, and are they restricted to residents of those counties?

district9 · Dec 19, 2015

77zach said:
True, splits may induce the SCOTUS to acknowledge more rights. Norman will loose because fl constitution says "manner" may be regulated, which they will redefine to mean oc can be banned because the 2nd amendment is a 2nd class right, that can be subject to prior restraint, licenses, and fees.

A judges is just a law student that grades his own papers

I'm afraid this is the likely outcome. Great description of judges

77zach · Dec 19, 2015

district9 said:
I'm afraid this is the likely outcome. Great description of judges

It's HL Menkin, but it's true. We tolerate "judges" making decisions about non negotiable rights. This is the rotten fruit of "democracy"

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California Right To Carry · Dec 19, 2015

district9 said:
I hadn't thought of it that way. If you're right there's a guaranteed split either way. OTOH if the regulation of the right is upheld, how would that play out?

How it plays out would depend upon what the Florida Supreme Court says in its decision. Norman's lawyer did a very good job of not giving the court enough wiggle room in his opening brief on the merits to let it off the hook in deciding the Open Carry question but courts can be very creative when it comes to ducking constitutional questions.

California Right To Carry · Dec 19, 2015

district9 said:
Are there still active open carry permits in those California counties, and are they restricted to residents of those counties?

Handgun Open Carry permits are issued under the same two statutes which provide for the issuance of concealed carry permits and so the handgun Open Carry permits are theoretically available for 90 days for those who can establish that they satisfy the employment/business nexus. If not then one must be a resident of the county and regardless, the permits are only valid in the county in which they were issued.

A few years back I wrote/emailed every county sheriff of a county with fewer than 200,000 people and only one responded (Imperial County). The Sheriff answered my inquiry (which also asked how many people had applied). He said that no handgun Open Carry permits were issued because nobody applied.

Only six percent of the state's population resides in these counties and I suspect that few of them are even aware that these handgun open carry permits exist.

77zach · Dec 19, 2015

California Right To Carry said:
Handgun Open Carry permits are issued under the same two statutes which provide for the issuance of concealed carry permits and so the handgun Open Carry permits are theoretically available for 90 days for those who can establish that they satisfy the employment/business nexus. If not then one must be a resident of the county and regardless, the permits are only valid in the county in which they were issued.

A few years back I wrote/emailed every county sheriff of a county with fewer than 200,000 people and only one responded (Imperial County). The Sheriff answered my inquiry (which also asked how many people had applied). He said that no handgun Open Carry permits were issued because nobody applied.

Only six percent of the state's population resides in these counties and I suspect that few of them are even aware that these handgun open carry permits exist.

Whenever I visit California, I'm sickened that such a wonderful state could be fouled by idiotic sheeple and the little Hitlers running the government. What a shame and national disaster.

solus · Dec 19, 2015

77zach said:
Whenever I visit California, I'm sickened that such a wonderful state could be fouled by idiotic sheeple and the little Hitlers running the government. What a shame and national disaster.

not sure why you are sickened ...tis about to befall the great state of Floridia...

ipse

77zach · Dec 19, 2015

solus said:
not sure why you are sickened ...tis about to befall the great state of Floridia...

ipse

Not sure why? California is the nicest state in the continental 48. Florida sucks in comparison. And Kalifornia is much worse. Florida has no income tax, less bureaucracy, and better gun laws than say, North Carolina where you're from, if you don't count open carry. We have no signage law or permit for handgun purchase.

solus · Dec 20, 2015

77zach said:
Not sure why? California is the nicest state in the continental 48. Florida sucks in comparison. And Kalifornia is much worse. Florida has no income tax, less bureaucracy, and better gun laws than say, North Carolina where you're from, if you don't count open carry. We have no signage law or permit for handgun purchase.

florida has better firearm laws... truly?

well as you point out if you don't count open carry...(without a privilege card I might add)

our signage does not carry the weight of law...you get trespassed if you are stupid enough to ignore the request to depart by an individual in charge of the property.

our PPP/CHP requirement while some see as a burden, I see as a inclusive 'gun control' check before billy bob and his kin purchase a firearm(s) to go hunt down the hatfields who did them wrong, since it puts the 'local' mental health, court record review in the locale where the firearms are being purchased not in the big FBI's NICS database which might be lacking inputted data cuz the nice LE didn't hit 'send'.
remember, those documents allow NC firearm buying citizens NOT to have to deal with NICS checks...:banana: so there are no 'disapprovals' and citizens walk out with firearm in hand ~ so to speak.

now let me see hear...which firearm am I going to open carry this fine cool day...ya the tribal is a good choice to go with my sunday dress up clothes

ya'll enjoy your perception of better firearm carry law down in the sunshine state....ya here...

district9 · Dec 20, 2015

California Right To Carry said:
How it plays out would depend upon what the Florida Supreme Court says in its decision. Norman's lawyer did a very good job of not giving the court enough wiggle room in his opening brief on the merits to let it off the hook in deciding the Open Carry question but courts can be very creative when it comes to ducking constitutional questions.

The 4th DCA certainly showed that.

district9 · Dec 20, 2015

California Right To Carry said:
Handgun Open Carry permits are issued under the same two statutes which provide for the issuance of concealed carry permits and so the handgun Open Carry permits are theoretically available for 90 days for those who can establish that they satisfy the employment/business nexus. If not then one must be a resident of the county and regardless, the permits are only valid in the county in which they were issued.

A few years back I wrote/emailed every county sheriff of a county with fewer than 200,000 people and only one responded (Imperial County). The Sheriff answered my inquiry (which also asked how many people had applied). He said that no handgun Open Carry permits were issued because nobody applied.

Only six percent of the state's population resides in these counties and I suspect that few of them are even aware that these handgun open carry permits exist.

Interesting info. Thanks. I've emailed a few California sheriffs asking how nonresidents can legally carry in California. Bottom line was that of course it's basically not possible - the pretzel logic used to justify California gun laws was pretty pathetic.

77zach · Dec 20, 2015

solus said:
florida has better firearm laws... truly?

well as you point out if you don't count open carry...(without a privilege card I might add)

our signage does not carry the weight of law...you get trespassed if you are stupid enough to ignore the request to depart by an individual in charge of the property.

our PPP/CHP requirement while some see as a burden, I see as a inclusive 'gun control' check before billy bob and his kin purchase a firearm(s) to go hunt down the hatfields who did them wrong, since it puts the 'local' mental health, court record review in the locale where the firearms are being purchased not in the big FBI's NICS database which might be lacking inputted data cuz the nice LE didn't hit 'send'.
remember, those documents allow NC firearm buying citizens NOT to have to deal with NICS checks...:banana: so there are no 'disapprovals' and citizens walk out with firearm in hand ~ so to speak.

now let me see hear...which firearm am I going to open carry this fine cool day...ya the tribal is a good choice to go with my sunday dress up clothes

ya'll enjoy your perception of better firearm carry law down in the sunshine state....ya here...

Handgunlaw.us says signs carry legal weight, they should clarify that.

Yes, open carry is the issue for me, "other than that, how was the show Mrs Lincoln?" You talk of the PPP as almost a good thing, but I don't believe in "background checks". Also, most people aren't like me, they'd rather conceal or keep their gun in their car; and in Florida, no license is needed for a loaded handgun in a glovebox or center console or other container. Also, a loaded long gun may be anywhere in a vehicle without a license. I don't think either is allowed in NC without a license. The gun must be openly displayed at all times.

notalawyer · Dec 20, 2015

77zach said:
Handgunlaw.us says signs carry legal weight, they should clarify that.

Yes, open carry is the issue for me, "other than that, how was the show Mrs Lincoln?" You talk of the PPP as almost a good thing, but I don't believe in "background checks". Also, most people aren't like me, they'd rather conceal or keep their gun in their car; and in Florida, no license is needed for a loaded handgun in a glovebox or center console or other container. Also, a loaded long gun may be anywhere in a vehicle without a license. I don't think either is allowed in NC without a license. The gun must be openly displayed at all times.

Yep.
§ 14 415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.

(c) A permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in . . . (snip) where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.

Norman v. State link to oral arguments here.

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