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Thread: Michigan OC question

  1. #1

    Michigan OC question

    I know that you cannot OC is a place licensed under the liquor control act but does that mean restaurant, supermarkets, and 7-11's are no go's for OC?

  2. #2
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    From your thread started in the Open Carry Questions forum:

    Hey guys! So I'm not a CPL holder because I'm 19 however I'm a legal firearm owner. My parents and most family members are CPL holders however since the rules are different for OC without a CPL I have a few questions. I know I can carry in most any public place and places such as malls, stores, etc as long as there are no policies or postings against it. And I understand that to OC is public schools you need a CPL. However I do have a few questions.
    1) Can I open carry in restaurants (Applebee's, outback, etc) that serve alcohol?

    2) can I OC in places that are licensed under an FFL? (can I carry a firearm into a Dunham's, dicks, cabelas?) I wondered if since they're federally licensed if somehow they have to follow federal gun jurisdiction.

    3) Is OC really worth it? I understand what's legal and what isn't but I'm concerned that I'll end up getting arrested for violating some obscure law since it seems most people frown on OC.

    Thanks guys hope these questions aren't too dumb but I've been researching and talking to law enforcement agents for weeks before I think about walking out of the house with a gun.
    1) No, unless you have permission from the owner or an agent of the Owner. See 750.234d below:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(w1j...e=mcl-750-234d

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    2) Yes, but remember all are private property and they can post (signs) prohibiting their clientele to carry (CC and OC) loaded firearms and/or ask you to leave. Yes, all are federally licensed (ATF) but they are not federal property any more than banks insured by FDIC.

    3) Some say it's worth it some don't. It's a decision "you" have to make and no one on here or elsewhere can make that decision for you.

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    First- welcome to open carry. It will become significantly easier when you reach 21 and can get a CPL. There are many pitfalls to OC without a CPL, and you wisely asked about some of them, and got a great answer. Be espescially careful about vehicles. There is no way yo 'open carry' in (or on) a motor vehicle in Michigan.

    The hard question is, 'is it worth it?'. This is a deeply personal choice that only you can answer. My experience as a somewhat grizzled 56 year old white male is likely not going to be yours. While many cry that one's appearance should not matter, it does. It's simply human nature. Just know that your appearance and demeanor will significantly affect people's reaction to you.

    Know that even if you present an 'neutral' appearance, with a mature demeanor, you may still get approached by well meaning, but misinformed individuals who take exception to your choice to carry a sidearm. This may include interaction with law enforcement.

    I can only say, study, and study hard, the laws for yourself. No one on the internet will be able to testify on your behalf if something goes awry. You must know the law intimately, and have the composure to keep quiet during a law enforcement encounter. You have the right to remain silent; the hard part is actually remaining silent. Watch ('Don't Talk to the Police).

    One major piece of advice I always, always, preach- get a pocket digital recorder. There are many available for a small price. Keep it on you, and recording, AT ALL TIMES, from when you strap your sidearm on, to when you put it in the safe. DO NOT expect that you will have time to turn it on at the beginning of an encounter. If you are being stopped by law enforcement, you DO NOT want to make any 'sudden, furtive moves', as you may encounter extreme violence on the law enforcement officer's side. Have the recorder going ALWAYS.

    Why? Because your behaviour immediately prior to the stop may be in question. There was a stop in Grand Rapids about 1 and 1/2 years ago wherein the responding officer made a statement upon arriving at the scene, that the subject was 'talking to himself', thereby justifying his illegal, violent take down of the subject. It was clear from the camera angle in the officer's car that it was impossible to make that determination from behind the subject, and at that distance, but it would have been nice to have had evidence of the moments immediately proceeding, that the subject was not verbalizing anything, that he was simply walking down the street. The officer was establishing his 'fable' to justify his violence. Fortunately, the facts did not support his rationale for his unnecessary aggression. Note, the new chief of GRPD refuses to equip his officers with body cams, obviously so this pattern of deceit and unwarranted violence may continue unabated.

    There are many open carry events in the southeast Michigan area, both seminars put on by Michigan Open Carry, and luncheons and dinners for like minded folks to meet. They're also good ways to open carry for your first time, and to build confidence. Keep an eye on the top of the Michigan forum for event information. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...ichigan-Events and http://miopencarry.org/.
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 11-09-2014 at 03:23 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    First- welcome to open carry. It will become significantly easier when you reach 21 and can get a CPL. There are many pitfalls to OC without a CPL, and you wisely asked about some of them, and got a great answer. Be espescially careful about vehicles. There is no way yo 'open carry' in (or on) a motor vehicle in Michigan.

    The hard question is, 'is it worth it?'. This is a deeply personal choice that only you can answer. My experience as a somewhat grizzled 56 year old white male is likely not going to be yours. While many cry that one's appearance should not matter, it does. It's simply human nature. Just know that your appearance and demeanor will significantly affect people's reaction to you.

    Know that even if you present an 'neutral' appearance, with a mature demeanor, you may still get approached by well meaning, but misinformed individuals who take exception to your choice to carry a sidearm. This may include interaction with law enforcement.

    I can only say, study, and study hard, the laws for yourself. No one on the internet will be able to testify on your behalf if something goes awry. You must know the law intimately, and have the composure to keep quiet during a law enforcement encounter. You have the right to remain silent; the hard part is actually remaining silent. Watch ('Don't Talk to the Police).

    One major piece of advice I always, always, preach- get a pocket digital recorder. There are many available for a small price. Keep it on you, and recording, AT ALL TIMES, from when you strap your sidearm on, to when you put it in the safe. DO NOT expect that you will have time to turn it on at the beginning of an encounter. If you are being stopped by law enforcement, you DO NOT want to make any 'sudden, furtive moves', as you may encounter extreme violence on the law enforcement officer's side. Have the recorder going ALWAYS.

    Why? Because your behaviour immediately prior to the stop may be in question. There was a stop in Grand Rapids about 1 and 1/2 years ago wherein the responding officer made a statement upon arriving at the scene, that the subject was 'talking to himself', thereby justifying his illegal, violent take down of the subject. It was clear from the camera angle in the officer's car that it was impossible to make that determination from behind the subject, and at that distance, but it would have been nice to have had evidence of the moments immediately proceeding, that the subject was not verbalizing anything, that he was simply walking down the street. The officer was establishing his 'fable' to justify his violence. Fortunately, the facts did not support his rationale for his unnecessary aggression. Note, the new chief of GRPD refuses to equip his officers with body cams, obviously so this pattern of deceit and unwarranted violence may continue unabated.

    There are many open carry events in the southeast Michigan area, both seminars put on by Michigan Open Carry, and luncheons and dinners for like minded folks to meet. They're also good ways to open carry for your first time, and to build confidence. Keep an eye on the top of the Michigan forum for event information. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...ichigan-Events and http://miopencarry.org/.
    Thank you for the info! It's greatly appreciated.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit5906 View Post
    I know that you cannot OC is a place licensed under the liquor control act but does that mean restaurant, supermarkets, and 7-11's are no go's for OC?
    Something to add to Springer's already pretty informative post is this:

    That the establishment *serves* alcohol is not required for OC without a CPL to be illegal, only that the establishment is *licensed*.

    It is possible for something like a gas station to be *licensed* to sell alcohol even if the do not actually sell any alcohol. Caution is recommended.

  6. #6
    It seems like you really can't OC anywhere without worrying about getting in trouble.

  7. #7
    I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass

  8. #8
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit5906 View Post
    I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass
    It is, with a CPL

    You might want to arrange getting with Evil Creamsicle for coffee or something. He is extremely knowledgeable on open carry
    Last edited by Raggs; 11-10-2014 at 03:40 PM.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  9. #9
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit5906 View Post
    I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass
    OC without CPL - prohibited if establishment is licensed by the liquor control act.
    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 750.234d
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    ...
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    CC with CPL - prohibited if the establishment's primary source of income is from open alcohol sales for consumption on the premises

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 28.425o
    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    ...
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    OC with CPL - Legal

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 28.425o
    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by 750.234d
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    ...
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    You can read the full text of these laws here.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 11-10-2014 at 05:44 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    ...You might want to arrange getting with Evil Creamsicle for coffee or something...
    I'm open to this, pm me if you want.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MCL 28.425o

    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    ...
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

    primary source of income

    An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......
    Last edited by Bikenut; 11-10-2014 at 05:17 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

    primary source of income

    An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......
    This is exactly correct. Thanks for clarifying!
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  13. #13
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

    primary source of income

    An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......
    True, good point. Edited my post to reflect a more correct wording.

  14. #14
    So to be clear. Restaurants that sell alcohol as well as store such as Kroger and meijer are off limits it OC without a CPL because they're licensed under the Michigan liquor control act? Are these places required to post signs prohibiting carry of firearms? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding I'm just looking for clarification because the law language seems awfully wordy

  15. #15
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit5906 View Post
    So to be clear. Restaurants that sell alcohol as well as store such as Kroger and meijer are off limits it OC without a CPL because they're licensed under the Michigan liquor control act? Are these places required to post signs prohibiting carry of firearms? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding I'm just looking for clarification because the law language seems awfully wordy

    yes they are off limits without a CPL

    No they are not required to have signage pointing it out.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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