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Thread: Lazy cops or not - clearly did not complain about quotas before they were disiplined

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    Lazy cops or not - clearly did not complain about quotas before they were disiplined

    NORMAL Three Normal Police Department patrol officers have filed a lawsuit against the town alleging they have been improperly disciplined for failing to meet arrest quotas.

    http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local..._medium=direct
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-15-2014 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Fixed title

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    NORMAL Three Normal Police Department patrol officers have filed a lawsuit against the town alleging they have been improperly disciplined for failing to meet arrest quotas.

    http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local..._medium=direct

    Perhaps the reason they "didn't complain about the quotas until they were disciplined" is because until reprimanded, one could hardly claim it was truly a quota, nor could the really articulate any damages.


    From what little evidence I have seen so far, these officers should be commended. I tip my hat to them.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    Perhaps the reason they "didn't complain about the quotas until they were disciplined" is because until reprimanded, one could hardly claim it was truly a quota, nor could the really articulate any damages.
    I get the same impression from what I know so far. Many moons ago living in IL it was often rumored but never quite proved that such and such towns had these quotas. Obviously it was and did go on and was a problem as the article states " A law signed this year in Illinois makes such quota systems illegal".
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    Perhaps the reason they "didn't complain about the quotas until they were disciplined" is because until reprimanded, one could hardly claim it was truly a quota, nor could the really articulate any damages.
    <snip>.
    You mean that they could not tell if quotas were actually present? They were likely warned more than once before being fired that they were not meeting their quotas. Hence, even if they were dumb, would have had notice of the quotas prior to their termination.

    I don't think that they'll win their case ... IL does not like to expand the exceptions to at-will employment...and I don't see this as being within the world of wrongful discharges in existence to my knowledge.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    --snipped--...and I don't see this as being within the world of wrongful discharges in existence to my knowledge.
    So all of your discharges/dismissals were for valid cause - not wrongful or improper?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    So all of your discharges/dismissals were for valid cause - not wrongful or improper?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You mean that they could not tell if quotas were actually present? They were likely warned more than once before being fired that they were not meeting their quotas. Hence, even if they were dumb, would have had notice of the quotas prior to their termination.

    I don't think that they'll win their case.........
    What I meant was if officers complain about quotas before being punished for failing to meet them, it is much easier for the City to claim that they are not "quotas" but just "performance goals". Goals they are "encouraged" but not "required" to meet.

    It appears that three officers are involved in the lawsuit. One officer got a letter of reprimand and then complained after being suspended, one officer complained after receiving a negative review, and one was given a warning. None of the officers involved in the case that is the main subject of the article were fired. They are still in the department. They are asking for an injunction against the quotas, and the one that was suspended is seeking 300 Federal Reserve Notes in damages.

    Only one of the officers mentioned in the story, who is involved in a (pending) criminal case was fired, but that was not for violating the quota. It was for falsifying tickets.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 11-15-2014 at 03:50 AM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    I doubt that the city will say that they fired them over quotas ... any whistle-blower claim is gone.

    If they were not fired, the quotas would have continued unabated.

    How many other PDs have quotas where cops are not speaking out?

    Who got the screw-job on these cops' PD's quota? You and me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I doubt that the city will say that they fired them over quotas ..............

    If they were not fired, the quotas would have continued unabated.
    (bold added)

    Why do you insist on implying that the officers were fired? The three officers that were the subject of the article, and plaintiffs in the civil case were NOT fired. They are still with the department.

    The story mentioned that an officer was fired, BUT that officer is NOT part of the lawsuit. He is involved in a SEPARATE (pending) criminal case and is apparently trying to use the existence of a quota system as part of his defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    How many other PDs have quotas where cops are not speaking out?
    My guess, which is based mostly on speculation, would be several, I wouldn't be surprised if quotas are a relatively standard practice. However, that does not have much to do with this case.

    Quotas are obviously a practice that is extremely dangerous to freedom, and should be eliminated. Any officers (or anyone else) who expose such systems at risk to themselves and their careers will receive my appreciation, gratitude, and respect. (unless and until other facts come to light to change that.)

    As a child I was fortunate enough to be taught a valuable life lesson, one that all people should learn: Not all (individual) cops are your friends, not all of them want to help you, and not all (individual) cops are supporters of our freedom.

    I was also taught the other part of that lesson, which is almost as important but not nearly as popular: Not all (individual) cops are your enemy either, and not all (individual) cops are the antithesis of freedom.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    (bold added)

    <snip>

    I was also taught the other part of that lesson, which is almost as important but not nearly as popular: Not all (individual) cops are your enemy either, and not all (individual) cops are the antithesis of freedom.
    No cops or members of the military make you free or more free-er, they can only take your freedoms away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    .......I was fortunate enough to be taught a valuable life lesson, one that all people should learn: Not all (individual) cops are your friends, not all of them want to help you, and not all (individual) cops are supporters of our freedom.

    I was also taught the other part of that lesson, which is almost as important but not nearly as popular: Not all (individual) cops are your enemy either, and not all (individual) cops are the antithesis of freedom.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    No cops or members of the military make you free or more free-er, they can only take your freedoms away.

    I prefer to make a distinction between the individual and the institution. The point I was attempting to make was that not all individuals within said institution have an aim to take freedoms away. There are individuals who aim to protect our freedoms, by exercising limited powers granted to them via a constitution.

    Perhaps these individuals believe in a faulty system and no government is needed at all, perhaps they are right and some government is needed but "that government is best that governs least." Either way, I respect those individuals for their intention to protect freedom and consider them allies in the struggle against tyranny.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I prefer to make a distinction between the individual and the institution. The point I was attempting to make was that not all individuals within said institution have an aim to take freedoms away. There are individuals who aim to protect our freedoms, by exercising limited powers granted to them via a constitution.

    Perhaps these individuals believe in a faulty system and no government is needed at all, perhaps they are right and some government is needed but "that government is best that governs least." Either way, I respect those individuals for their intention to protect freedom and consider them allies in the struggle against tyranny.
    But these guys intent is to get $$$ from a lawsuit .... they were part of a system of quotas, if they fully participated or not, and said nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But these guys intent is to get $$$ from a lawsuit .... they were part of a system of quotas, if they fully participated or not, and said nothing.
    They (apparently) are not looking for a big monetary settlement.

    Actually only one officer is seeking monetary damages in the amount of 300 federal reserve notes, hardly a big payday. All three officers are seeking an injunction that would end the quota system. Seems to me that their intent is to end the quota system, not profit from a lawsuit.

    They didn't "say nothing"...... After being punished and thus having proof and being able to demonstrate standing they filled a lawsuit to end the quotas, that is not "saying nothing" that is saying a lot.

    Quoted from the article you posted: "All three officers ask through their Peoria lawyer, Ryan McCracken, that an injunction be ordered to end the town's policy on arrest minimums. Weir asks that she be reimbursed the $300 in lost pay for her suspension."
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 11-16-2014 at 10:30 AM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    I'm on the fence about quotas. Personally I don't have to do deal with them so I can't speak from experience.

    I can see both sides of the equation. Some say it motivates guys to make up citations or false arrests. On the other side its just a measure to make sure your actually doing what your paid to do.

    For example if that one arrest a month (miniscule numbers in a city) is used to grab one rapist a month or one violent criminal a month then that's a good thing. If its used in a small town and the only people to arrest to meet the quota is Grandma for an expired drivers licenses then thats horrible.

    Good idea but potential for serious abuse which is bad.

    The one thing there should be a quota for is how many people you help a month/day/week. So how many guys have you pulled behind and helped change a tire? How many lost kids have you brought home? How many times have you stopped to talk and hang out with local kids or citizens.

    Good policing isn't always about grabbing the bad guy. Thats one thing my LT had to damn near beat into me.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I'm on the fence about quotas.........

    I can see both sides of the equation............

    For example if that one arrest a month (miniscule numbers in a city) is used to grab one rapist a month or one violent criminal a month then that's a good thing. If its used in a small town and the only people to arrest to meet the quota is Grandma for an expired drivers licenses then thats horrible......
    The question that I would encourage you to ask yourself is: Of all the officers you know, how many need quotas or a threat of punishment to arrest a rapist or violent criminal?

    I presume that the intent and desire to catch rapists and other violent criminals is a top reason for becoming a LEO for many or most of those who choose to do so.

    An officer (generally) needs no punishment or threat thereof to motivate them to arrest someone for a violent crime. Their conscience, morality, and desire to help people are motivation enough. I feel the only arrests that quotas can motivate are those that the officer would otherwise be in doubt about, and absent a quota system probably wouldn't make.

    If an officer needs punishment or threats thereof to motivate them to arrest a violent criminal, are they really the right person for the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post

    The one thing there should be a quota for is how many people you help a month/day/week. So how many guys have you pulled behind and helped change a tire? How many lost kids have you brought home? How many times have you stopped to talk and hang out with local kids or citizens.

    Good policing isn't always about grabbing the bad guy. Thats one thing my LT had to damn near beat into me.
    I tip my hat to your LT.
    Unfortunately, (according to the article) those actions you described, and other ways of helping folks was not "credited" in the quota system therefore (potentially) creating a system where such activities are somewhat discouraged.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 11-16-2014 at 01:40 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    The question that I would encourage you to ask yourself is: Of all the officers you know, how many need quotas or a threat of punishment to arrest a rapist or violent criminal?

    I presume that the intent and desire to catch rapists and other violent criminals is a top reason for becoming a LEO for many or most of those who choose to do so.

    An officer (generally) needs no punishment or threat thereof to motivate them to arrest someone for a violent crime. Their conscience, morality, and desire to help people are motivation enough. I feel the only arrests that quotas can motivate are those that the officer would otherwise be in doubt about, and absent a quota system probably wouldn't make.

    If an officer needs punishment or threats thereof to motivate them to arrest a violent criminal, are they really the right person for the job?



    I tip my hat to your LT.
    Unfortunately, (according to the article) those actions you described, and other ways of helping folks was not "credited" in the quota system therefore (potentially) creating a system where such activities are somewhat discouraged.
    Actually I do know some that would require motivation to go get said violent criminals. Some would prefer to just park somewhere or stay in the station or some other nonsense. Just like any other job. Like the OP said. There are plenty of lazy cops.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Actually I do know some that would require motivation to go get said violent criminals. Some would prefer to just park somewhere or stay in the station or some other nonsense. Just like any other job. Like the OP said. There are plenty of lazy cops.
    I know cops who when the radio calls out for a cop to go to location XYZ, they head in the opposite direction...

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I know cops who when the radio calls out for a cop to go to location XYZ, they head in the opposite direction...
    Correct. I've seen that also. I'm lucky to have good guys in my relief but I have seen similar things happen. Lucky they are balances out by other guys who go to every call as back up regardless if they were dispatched.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Correct. I've seen that also. I'm lucky to have good guys in my relief but I have seen similar things happen. Lucky they are balances out by other guys who go to every call as back up regardless if they were dispatched.
    I just figured that the guys who show up have a terrible sense of direction..

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I just figured that the guys who show up have a terrible sense of direction..
    Nah lines too long at donut shop.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Nah lines too long at donut shop.
    Donut-cop jokes are not allowed on this site....

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Donut-cop jokes are not allowed on this site....
    Your just mad because you didn't think of it first..
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    It is unfortunate that a court order is required. Quota or "metric tool," the result is the same.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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