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Thread: Open Carry ANYWHERE with a CCW. School, church, police station, etc.

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    Exclamation Open Carry ANYWHERE with a CCW. School, church, police station, etc.

    571.107.1 specifically states a concealed carry permit holder cannot carry a concealed weapon into a place with a posted sign, schools, churches or government buildings. But it does not address open carry at all. I've searched through the state laws as best I can and cannot find a single one that restricts open carry in places with posted signs saying no concealed weapons. Further, Section 571.030.1 specifically states where you cannot openly carry a firearm, but also says the open carry restriction for schools, churches and government buildings does not apply if you have a CCW.

    So as best I can tell, unless there is a law I missed, open carry is legal (with or without a CCW) in posted "no concealed" places because the law does not forbid it.

    And the law goes out of it's way to specifically lift the restriction of open carry in in schools, churches and government buildings with a concealed carry permit.

    I have to have missed something....

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...100000301.html
    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

    ...

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or

    ..

    (10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board; or

    ...

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 , a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...100001071.html
    571.107. 1. A concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 , a valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 , valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

    ...

    (15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
    Last edited by EyeDreamt; 11-19-2014 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Wheew, lots'a words. Welcome to OCDO.
    Yeah, somewhat long winded, but I wanted to go over what I'd read. I have to assume I've missed a law somewhere that actually re-prohibits open carry by anyone in certain places, CCW or not. But I haven't found that law yet and I've been looking the past two days.

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    There's a common curse around here, some form of TLDR - Too Long Didn't Read. This is not a class assigning credibility on word count.
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    What happened to the original post? It's gone

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    Quote Originally Posted by austin316bs View Post
    What happened to the original post? It's gone
    New users (Newbies) are subject to their posts being reviewed/approved - it was likely in the que.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-19-2014 at 02:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    New users (Newbies) are subject to their posts being reviewed/approved - it was likely in the que.
    How long does it take to approve or deny my post, and will I get some kind of notification? Just curious.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    How long does it take to approve or deny my post, and will I get some kind of notification? Just curious.
    Depends somewhat on traffic and who is online. Never will be a great deal of time though. That restriction goes away after 10 clean posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    What you have been missing is the right of others to control their private property. Just as you have a right to "keep and bear arms", they have a right to control who and under what conditions their property is used.
    Yes. I know that a private business or residence owner or manager could ask you to leave if they don't want you there.. but they couldn't have you arrested for just walking into the place with a gun on your hip if they have a "no concealed firearms" sign. They could, however, file trespassing charges if you refused to leave after they asked you to.... or am I wrong?

    Jurisdictions own public schools, and SB656 took away the ability for a jurisdiction to ban OC so schools (or my nephews football game on school property) should be OK or OC in.

    What I'm getting at is while I usually prefer to CC, in some places I legally can't it seems the law allows me to OC instead. And that's better than being unarmed completely.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    So what are you going to do, CC up to the door, pull your gun out, and re-holster it in your OC holster?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    Regular Member HP995's Avatar
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    How does that work?

    The general law says no weapons at these places. In or out.

    The CC law says that with a permit you can carry anywhere, but not CC at those places.

    OC at those places is still covered by the general law. Right?

    656 says you can OC where you can CC. So those places still apply, don't they?

    About Amendment 5, I'm still waiting for news. But I doubt it could strike those places. I would be happy if it did.

    So I don't see how the posted laws add up to OC anywhere - is there something else? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    So what are you going to do, CC up to the door, pull your gun out, and re-holster it in your OC holster?
    No, I'll switch to OC in my car. I have both holsters with me all the time anyway in case I decide to go to the range, I like to practice with both. I don't think pulling your gun from the holster in public view is ever a good idea, no matter the reason. (Unless of course if there is a need to do so to protect someone's life.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HP995 View Post
    How does that work?

    The general law says no weapons at these places. In or out.

    The CC law says that with a permit you can carry anywhere, but not CC at those places.

    OC at those places is still covered by the general law. Right?

    656 says you can OC where you can CC. So those places still apply, don't they?

    About Amendment 5, I'm still waiting for news. But I doubt it could strike those places. I would be happy if it did.

    So I don't see how the posted laws add up to OC anywhere - is there something else? Thanks.
    The general law, 571.030 Section 1 sub-sections 8 and 10 bans carrying a firearm in any manner in/on:
    • church
    • election precinct on election day
    • buildings owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof
    • any school
    • any school bus
    • the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board


    It then nullifies that ban for permit holders in 571.030 Section 4:
    Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 , a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    571.107. Section 1 only bans CC, not OC in all the places it lists such as schools, government buildings, police stations, etc.

    Amendment 5 has nothing to do with any of it at this point, the laws in place don't disallow it.
    Last edited by EyeDreamt; 11-20-2014 at 10:57 AM.

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    That's interesting! Wow.

    Technically I would agree, the wording might nullify the whole prohibition.

    Practically I would talk to a 2A lawyer first. And have life insurance and body armor handy. Because arguably the intent/assumption of section 4 could be for concealed carry, so the courts would decide it. Meanwhile, you could run into some trigger-happy guards who are not acquainted with the finer points of the law.

    Meanwhile, the CC law also puts very tight limits on the penalties for carrying CC to a restricted place. Always follow the law! Don't carry in those places. But theoretically, if someone accidentally forgets and CC's in a restricted place the penalty would probably be much, much less than if they OC in a gray place and the judge decides it's a red place. Right?

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    No, I'll switch to OC in my car. I have both holsters with me all the time anyway in case I decide to go to the range, I like to practice with both. I don't think pulling your gun from the holster in public view is ever a good idea, no matter the reason. (Unless of course if there is a need to do so to protect someone's life.)
    Just making sure you were legit

    Be careful even doing that though.
    Last edited by The Truth; 11-20-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    [ ... ] I have both holsters with me all the time anyway in case I decide to go to the range, I like to practice with both. [ ... ]
    Cherish your range that allows drawing from a holster. They are not common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Just making sure you were legit

    Be careful even doing that though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Cherish your range that allows drawing from a holster. They are not common.
    It's an outdoor range... gun club actually. I don't know that its allowed per se but no one has ever given me any trouble about it. I hate that 99% of ranges don't allow it. I get why, insurance companies have rules, but it still sucks.


    Quote Originally Posted by HP995 View Post
    That's interesting! Wow.

    Technically I would agree, the wording might nullify the whole prohibition.

    Practically I would talk to a 2A lawyer first. And have life insurance and body armor handy. Because arguably the intent/assumption of section 4 could be for concealed carry, so the courts would decide it. Meanwhile, you could run into some trigger-happy guards who are not acquainted with the finer points of the law.

    Meanwhile, the CC law also puts very tight limits on the penalties for carrying CC to a restricted place. Always follow the law! Don't carry in those places. But theoretically, if someone accidentally forgets and CC's in a restricted place the penalty would probably be much, much less than if they OC in a gray place and the judge decides it's a red place. Right?
    Not to argue that I'm right or know the intent of the law cause I have no idea... but....

    If the intent is to prevent any carry (OC or CC) in those places for everyone, why remove those restrictions for a concealed permit holder and then in the concealed permit law add them back only for CC. Just never remove them. Instead of nullifying sub-section 1, 8, and 10, they could have just nullified subsection 1 and not 8 and 10 and gotten that effect without adding any wording to the concealed permit law to.

    It seems like the intent is "We trust these people to have a concealed gun on them all the time, but if someone manages to get a glimpse of a concealed gun in a school or police station it could convey malicious intent and cause concern. So instead, because they are "trusted" due to having a permit, they can still have a gun in this place, but it has to be easily visible and seen in a holster so the intent doesn't come off as malicious.

    Basically if I'm standing in school and I print or lean down and expose the butt of my gun people would be like "Oh ****, he is hiding a gun, what is he gonna do!?!?" But if I have it in a holster on my hip completely visible then it doesn't seem like I'm trying to hide it.

    Why would the law restrict something, remove the restriction under a specific condition, and then half-add the restriction again and create a loophole in the process without intending to.
    Last edited by EyeDreamt; 11-20-2014 at 12:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HP995 View Post

    Meanwhile, the CC law also puts very tight limits on the penalties for carrying CC to a restricted place. Always follow the law! Don't carry in those places. But theoretically, if someone accidentally forgets and CC's in a restricted place the penalty would probably be much, much less than if they OC in a gray place and the judge decides it's a red place. Right?

    There are only 3 places I do not CC. They are the 3 places that are prohibited:
    Public busses, Metro trains, and of course areas prohibited by federal law. All other places are fair game as long as you have a MO CC license (School zones are off limits for out of state licenses) and there are no metal detectors.

    See: 578.305.4
    70.411.1(2) & 70.411.3(11)
    571.107.1(9)
    Scroll to page 3 to see federal places

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    Now the tricky part. Is MO a "pre-empted" state? If not, you may want to check local laws. In MI we have something very similar, but we also have a pre-emption clause that basically says no local unit of govt can make any laws more strict than state and federal in respect to firearms and ammo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Now the tricky part. Is MO a "pre-empted" state? If not, you may want to check local laws. In MI we have something very similar, but we also have a pre-emption clause that basically says no local unit of govt can make any laws more strict than state and federal in respect to firearms and ammo.
    Due to SB656 passing MO now pre-empts local laws against OC IF you have a concealed permit.

    (2) In any jurisdiction in which the open carrying of firearms is prohibited by ordinance, the open carrying of firearms shall not be prohibited in accordance with the following:

    (a) Any person with a valid concealed carry endorsement or permit who is open carrying a firearm shall be required to have a valid concealed carry endorsement or permit from this state, or a permit from another state that is recognized by this state, in his or her possession at all times;

    (b) Any person open carrying a firearm in such jurisdiction shall display his or her concealed carry endorsement or permit upon demand of a law enforcement officer;

    (c) In the absence of any reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity, no person carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm shall be disarmed or physically restrained by a law enforcement officer unless under arrest; and

    (d) Any person who violates this subdivision shall be subject to the penalty provided in section 571.121 .
    Last edited by EyeDreamt; 11-20-2014 at 01:21 PM.

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    Restricted places

    Correct me if i am wrong, but CC or OC in forbidden places is not a criminal offense unless it is restricted by federal law. Church, hospital etc, if they knew they could ask you to leave or call a LEO and he could ask you. If you refuse him he could ticket you $100. I would have to look this up again, I can't remember where I got this though. Could someone that knows about this let me know if I am correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    Correct me if i am wrong, but CC or OC in forbidden places is not a criminal offense unless it is restricted by federal law. Church, hospital etc, if they knew they could ask you to leave or call a LEO and he could ask you. If you refuse him he could ticket you $100. I would have to look this up again, I can't remember where I got this though. Could someone that knows about this let me know if I am correct.
    As far as I remember. I know if you get caught again the penalty goes up with revocation of you CCW eventually.

    I would like to see the LEO telling you to leave a hospital if you were seen with a gun. Probably be about 20 of them piling on you. You probably would not get in any trouble except a big hospital bill!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    Correct me if i am wrong, but CC or OC in forbidden places is not a criminal offense unless it is restricted by federal law. Church, hospital etc, if they knew they could ask you to leave or call a LEO and he could ask you. If you refuse him he could ticket you $100. I would have to look this up again, I can't remember where I got this though. Could someone that knows about this let me know if I am correct.
    If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her permit, and, if applicable, endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry permit, and, if applicable, endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry permit for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the concealed carry permit, or, if the person is a holder of a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the concealed carry permit or, if applicable, the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement. If the person holds an endorsement, the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302 which does not contain such endorsement. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.
    571.107.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrs2420 View Post
    571.107. 2 says "Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit..."

    Says nothing about OC. So the penalty for OC in a place you can't could be MUCH more severe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    571.107. 2 says "Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit..."

    Says nothing about OC. So the penalty for OC in a place you can't could be MUCH more severe.
    Generally the absence of reference (in this case not concealed/OC) means that that issue is not in violation. Might have to hash that out in court though.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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