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Thread: Another Rookie Cop, Another Tragic End to Life

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    Regular Member ODAAT's Avatar
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    Another Rookie Cop, Another Tragic End to Life

    EDIT:

    As pointed out in this thread, the article does not say the boy died.

    Also, I can see where this was a tragic case not entirely the fault of the police officer.

    I would edit the title of the thread but don't know where to do so...

    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...r_shoot_6.html
    Last edited by ODAAT; 11-23-2014 at 02:48 AM. Reason: corrections needed due to inaccurate initial claims I made

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.

    The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.
    Not even the same ballpark for types of incidents.

    The article you cited did not say the boy died yet.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-23-2014 at 01:12 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    "When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," Tomba said.


    There's the crux of their justification. IMO

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    "When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," Tomba said.

    There's the crux of their justification. IMO
    Granted, but this is a case of "put your hands up" and the kid going for the already-seen gun instead.

    Hard to put the cop in prison over this one.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member ODAAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Not even the same ballpark for types of incidents.

    The article you cited did not say the boy died yet.
    thank you - I clearly jumped too fast on this one. Edited original post, don't know how to edit the title...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Granted, but this is a case of "put your hands up" and the kid going for the already-seen gun instead.

    Hard to put the cop in prison over this one.
    A 12yr old boy?

    Look, the law says he cannot even have a gun .. so the cop should rely upon that and come to the conclusion that its a bb-gun or something of a similar nature.

    I would have zero problems with a guilty verdict and hanging.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A 12yr old boy?

    Look, the law says he cannot even have a gun .. so the cop should rely upon that and come to the conclusion that its a bb-gun or something of a similar nature.

    I would have zero problems with a guilty verdict and hanging.
    Cops have been shot and killed by 12-year old boys with real firearms.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    headline below article says 12 y/o boy died


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    I got upset by the statement that anyone was expected to comply with demands of a public servant. Let's honor the 12 y.o. a martyr for freedom.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    "When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," Tomba said.

    There's the crux of their justification. IMO
    Yep. That's Ferguson all over again with almost the same outcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wittmeba View Post
    Yep. That's Ferguson all over again with almost the same outcome.
    Watts, Selma, Oakland, San Francisco, Newark, Detroit, Milwaukee, Orangeburg, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A 12yr old boy?

    Look, the law says he cannot even have a gun .. so the cop should rely upon that and come to the conclusion that its a bb-gun or something of a similar nature.

    I would have zero problems with a guilty verdict and hanging.
    Wow with that logic no one does drugs or shoots up a gun free zone right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    Wow with that logic no one does drugs or shoots up a gun free zone right?
    Right? Good for the goose ...

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    Just maybe the kid was mentally challenged.....autistic or retarded and couldn't immediately respond to the officers commands. This comply or die attitude seems to be born out of how they are being trained today. Everything I have read on this the boy took it out of his waist band but did not point it at the officers. Is that the level of threat we can all base a defensive response on? If that were a citizen that thought he was in imminent danger of being shot where do you think he would be right now? Oh yeah, they are different than us. I forgot.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    Just maybe the kid was mentally challenged.....autistic or retarded and couldn't immediately respond to the officers commands. This comply or die attitude seems to be born out of how they are being trained today. Everything I have read on this the boy took it out of his waist band but did not point it at the officers. Is that the level of threat we can all base a defensive response on? If that were a citizen that thought he was in imminent danger of being shot where do you think he would be right now? Oh yeah, they are different than us. I forgot.
    You guys know I am not pro cop.

    But regardless of the arrogant statements made afterward, that's not what happened here.

    The kid did not ignore the cop. The kid did not run away. The kid PULLED A GUN after being told to put his hands up for what was a probable cause for detainment.

    Now, if there were mental issues involved, that doesn't make it any less potentially life-saving to shoot first. We used to put mentally ill people in asylums. Now we put them on the street because the asylums weren't done properly and were too expensive.

    I feel a regular civilian would have been justified in these circumstances as well, though a regular civilian would also probably need justification for attempting to detain someone.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-23-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You guys know I am not pro cop.

    But regardless of the arrogant statements made afterward, that's not what happened here.

    The kid did not ignore the cop. The kid did not run away. The kid PULLED A GUN after being told to put his hands up for what was a probable cause for detainment.

    Now, if there were mental issues involved, that doesn't make it any less potentially life-saving to shoot first. We used to put mentally ill people in asylums. Now we put them on the street because the asylums weren't done properly and were too expensive.

    I feel a regular civilian would have been justified in these circumstances as well, though a regular civilian would also probably need justification for attempting to detain someone.
    I think the only problem I have is would the same standard of defense apply to a non costumed mundane. (from the powers to be that is)
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth
    Why did the kid go for the weapon when asked to put his hands up by men with guns? Why didn't the kid communicate that it was a BB gun? ...
    It's really hard not to get upset when it's a 12 year old with a BB gun, but how can you get mad at the cops when the kid pulled the gun instead of raising his hands?

    ... This isn't like the Crawford (WalMart BB gun) case at all.
    Whaaaat? Yes, it's very like the Crawford case.
    The person holding the gun didn't stop holding the gun when told to, and (apparently) instead did something which could reasonably be construed as threatening.
    The guy in WM turned toward police with the rifle in hand instead of putting it down, the kid drew the pistol (which did not have the orange tip) after being told to keep his hands up - both deliberate actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    the child did not threaten the officer verbally or physically
    Um, yes he did. He pulled a gun.

    And the kid did die, according to the article & the blurbs under the photos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You guys know I am not pro cop.

    But regardless of the arrogant statements made afterward, that's not what happened here.

    The kid did not ignore the cop. The kid did not run away. The kid PULLED A GUN after being told to put his hands up for what was a probable cause for detainment.
    .
    The kid did not pull a GUN ... just to make that clear. Hard to say if he was just going to hand it to them; he certainly wasn't thinking he was going to dispatch them.

    Cops keep on doing this and the law will say : cops cannot shoot unless they have been shot upon and if they do then they shall be put on trial for homicide if the victim is killed.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The kid did not pull a GUN ... just to make that clear. Hard to say if he was just going to hand it to them; he certainly wasn't thinking he was going to dispatch them.
    What did he pull then?
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    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A 12yr old boy?

    Look, the law says he cannot even have a gun .. so the cop should rely upon that and come to the conclusion that its a bb-gun or something of a similar nature.

    I would have zero problems with a guilty verdict and hanging.
    Are you willing to be judged by the same standard? I am not!
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    These two articles are by the same reporter.
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...r_shoot_6.html

    This article indicates the kid died.
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...by_clevel.html

    I don't think all LEO's are good or bad. But I personally would hate to be one today. We want to believe that if someone points a gun at us we have a right to shoot in self defense. I don't see why that should be any different for LE. They can't wait to see if it is real and as posted above 12 year olds have killed too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wittmeba View Post
    [ ... ]we have a right to shoot in self defense. I don't see why that should be any different for LE. [ ... ]
    Public servants surrender their rights for powers delegated them by their public masters.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Public servants surrender their rights for powers delegated them by their public masters.
    Cite please.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A 12yr old boy?

    Look, the law says he cannot even have a gun .. so the cop should rely upon that and come to the conclusion that its a bb-gun or something of a similar nature.

    I would have zero problems with a guilty verdict and hanging.
    Yeah why not look up Nathaniel Abraham. An 11 year old boy at the time found guilty of shooting an 18 year old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Public servants surrender their rights for powers delegated them by their public masters.
    And sometimes people do stupid things and win stupid prizes, like what happened here. So next time you get pulled over or stopped and the officer tells you to put your hands up I expect you to fully not comply and reach for your pistol without saying a word.

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