Richmond Legislative Work Summit for 2015 General Assembly

T Dubya · Nov 23, 2014

Item #17:
Guns/Public Safety: Require complete background checks on all who purchase guns, institute a ban on military assault weapons, and a limit on the size of
ammunition magazines.

Page 25: STATEMENT OF SUPPORT
Background Checks on Private Gun Sales – Require background checks on
all gun purchases; Institute a ban on military assault weapons and a limit on
the size of ammunition magazines.

Page 25:
RATIONALE
 Virginia requires instant background checks on handgun purchases from licensed dealers but not on rifles and shotguns.
 Private sales, by individual, of firearms do not require background checks. The law regulates licensed dealers.

http://eservices.ci.richmond.va.us/applications/clerkstracking/getPDFCouncil.asp?NO=438&TYPE=I

skidmark · Nov 23, 2014

T Dubya said:
....
RATIONALE
 Virginia requires instant background checks on handgun purchases from licensed dealers but not on rifles and shotguns....
http://eservices.ci.richmond.va.us/applications/clerkstracking/getPDFCouncil.asp?NO=438&TYPE=I

When was the last time someone bought a long gun from a FFL and did not fill out paperwork?

stay safe.

T Dubya · Nov 23, 2014

skidmark said:
long gun from a FFL and did not fill out paperwork?

1 hour and 10 minutes, not bad I guess. I expected sooner.

davidmcbeth · Nov 23, 2014

Folks from CT move to Richmond? Sounds like it ...:banana::banana:

skidmark · Nov 23, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Folks from CT move to Richmond? Sounds like it ...:banana::banana:

The offer to cover your travel, housing and meals still is on the table.

stay safe.

wrearick · Nov 28, 2014

skidmark said:
When was the last time someone bought a long gun from a FFL and did not fill out paperwork?

stay safe.

if I read http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 section B.5 the only people who can purchase rifles or shotguns without a background check are "Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states ...." i.e. non Virginians! I "believe" that is because they may not be in the Virginia State Police data base and hence this provision is an attempt to at least try and ensure the purchaser is a reputable person. Probably not as much of a problem with today's interconnected databases but could have been at the time the law was enacted.

I could not find where a Virginia Resident is exempt from the back ground check for a firearm which was a rifle or shotgun and when I recently purchased a hunting rifle I was required to complete the background check.

wrearick · Nov 28, 2014

T Dubya said:
Item #17:
Guns/Public Safety: Require complete background checks on all who purchase guns, institute a ban on military assault weapons, and a limit on the size of
ammunition magazines.

Page 25: STATEMENT OF SUPPORT
Background Checks on Private Gun Sales – Require background checks on
all gun purchases; Institute a ban on military assault weapons and a limit on
the size of ammunition magazines.

Page 25:
RATIONALE
 Virginia requires instant background checks on handgun purchases from licensed dealers but not on rifles and shotguns.
 Private sales, by individual, of firearms do not require background checks. The law regulates licensed dealers.

http://eservices.ci.richmond.va.us/applications/clerkstracking/getPDFCouncil.asp?NO=438&TYPE=I

Virginia already limits the magazine capacity on assault firearms. (section G4 of http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 ) . "Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

Under the "Background Information" of the cited reference the document states:

"In the U.S. magazine capacity of certain firearms is restricted by statute, such
as the United States' Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which defined a
magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition as a
large capacity ammunition feeding device. This law expired in 2004 and
there have since been multiple attempts to renew it with no bill reaching the
House floor for a vote. An attempt to renew the limitations on large capacity
magazines also failed. Currently six U.S. states limit magazine capacities.
These range from 7 to 20 rounds. Many pistol and rifle magazines classified
by law as "high capacity" are the original design standard. Reduced
capacity magazines were later created in response to enactment of the
bans."

based on the above it appears Virginia is ALREADY one of the 6 states that limits magazine capacities (something the background info leaves out) so reading between the lines, the proposal wants to lower the limit from the current 20 rounds to something lower (as yet to be disclosed).

wrearick · Nov 28, 2014

T Dubya said:
Item #17:
Guns/Public Safety: Require complete background checks on all who purchase guns, institute a ban on military assault weapons, and a limit on the size of
ammunition magazines.

Page 25: STATEMENT OF SUPPORT
Background Checks on Private Gun Sales – Require background checks on
all gun purchases; Institute a ban on military assault weapons and a limit on
the size of ammunition magazines.

Page 25:
RATIONALE
 Virginia requires instant background checks on handgun purchases from licensed dealers but not on rifles and shotguns.
 Private sales, by individual, of firearms do not require background checks. The law regulates licensed dealers.

http://eservices.ci.richmond.va.us/applications/clerkstracking/getPDFCouncil.asp?NO=438&TYPE=I

The "rationale" on page 25 regarding background checks makes it appear that checks are not required for ANY purchases on rifles and shotguns, however the "background information" correctly lists the section of Virginia code and quotes correctly that this exemption ONLY applies to "residents of other states"

More misinformation to make the change appealing and achieve the real purpose - require private sales to utilize background checks.

peter nap · Nov 28, 2014

wrearick said:
Virginia already limits the magazine capacity on assault firearms. (section G4 of http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 ) . "Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

Under the "Background Information" of the cited reference the document states:

"In the U.S. magazine capacity of certain firearms is restricted by statute, such
as the United States' Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which defined a
magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition as a
large capacity ammunition feeding device. This law expired in 2004 and
there have since been multiple attempts to renew it with no bill reaching the
House floor for a vote. An attempt to renew the limitations on large capacity
magazines also failed. Currently six U.S. states limit magazine capacities.
These range from 7 to 20 rounds. Many pistol and rifle magazines classified
by law as "high capacity" are the original design standard. Reduced
capacity magazines were later created in response to enactment of the
bans."

based on the above it appears Virginia is ALREADY one of the 6 states that limits magazine capacities (something the background info leaves out) so reading between the lines, the proposal wants to lower the limit from the current 20 rounds to something lower (as yet to be disclosed).

Virginia only limits magazine capacity of a magazine that is IN the firearm at the time and only in certain areas and CHP holders are exempt from that.

It also doesn't apply to rimfires.

Where in that statute do you see a blanket limitation?

Grapeshot · Nov 28, 2014

peter nap said:
Virginia only limits magazine capacity of a magazine that is IN the firearm at the time and only in certain areas and CHP holders are exempt from that. It also doesn't apply to rimfires.

Where in that statute do you see a blanket limitation?

Yep - tell it like it is.

§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the [highlight]Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.[/highlight]

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4

2a4all · Nov 28, 2014

wrearick said:
if I read http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 section B.5 the only people who can purchase rifles or shotguns without a background check are "Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states ...." i.e. non Virginians! I "believe" that is because they may not be in the Virginia State Police data base and hence this provision is an attempt to at least try and ensure the purchaser is a reputable person. Probably not as much of a problem with today's interconnected databases but could have been at the time the law was enacted.

I could not find where a Virginia Resident is exempt from the back ground check for a firearm which was a rifle or shotgun and when I recently purchased a hunting rifle I was required to complete the background check.

18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.B.5. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states under the terms of subsections A and B upon furnishing the dealer with proof of citizenship or status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence and one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services.

Subsections A & B set forth the requirements for background checks; non-residents are not exempt. Section C requires "unless he has first obtained from the Department of State Police a report indicating that a search of all available criminal history record information has not disclosed that the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm under state or federal law." I don't see a non-resident exemption here either.

wrearick said:
Virginia already limits the magazine capacity on assault firearms. (section G4 of http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 ) . "Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

Under the "Background Information" of the cited reference the document states:

"In the U.S. magazine capacity of certain firearms is restricted by statute, such
as the United States' Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which defined a
magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition as a
large capacity ammunition feeding device. This law expired in 2004 and
there have since been multiple attempts to renew it with no bill reaching the
House floor for a vote. An attempt to renew the limitations on large capacity
magazines also failed. Currently six U.S. states limit magazine capacities.
These range from 7 to 20 rounds. Many pistol and rifle magazines classified
by law as "high capacity" are the original design standard. Reduced
capacity magazines were later created in response to enactment of the
bans."

based on the above it appears Virginia is ALREADY one of the 6 states that limits magazine capacities (something the background info leaves out) so reading between the lines, the proposal wants to lower the limit from the current 20 rounds to something lower (as yet to be disclosed).

18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.G.4 "Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

This only defines an "assault firearm"; it does not limit the size of the magazine. Clearly, the capacity can exceed 20 rounds.

skidmark · Nov 28, 2014

wrearick said:
if I read http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2 section B.5 the only people who can purchase rifles or shotguns without a background check are "Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states ...." i.e. non Virginians! I "believe" that is because they may not be in the Virginia State Police data base and hence this provision is an attempt to at least try and ensure the purchaser is a reputable person. Probably not as much of a problem with today's interconnected databases but could have been at the time the law was enacted.

I could not find where a Virginia Resident is exempt from the back ground check for a firearm which was a rifle or shotgun and when I recently purchased a hunting rifle I was required to complete the background check.

This does not exempt anybody from a background check. It allows persons who are not residents of Virginia to purchase rifles and shotguns in Virginia, as opposed to handgun purchases which must be done in the purchaser's state of residence.

At one time non-residents of Virginia could not purchase rifles/shotguns in Virginia. Later the law was revised to allow residents of contiguous states to purchase rifles/shotguns in Virginia IF the purchase would be legal in the purchaser's state of residence; not so much a problem for folks from WVa and TN but still problematic for folks from NC (purchase permit still needed) and MD (sucks to be you = MD state policy). DC was always a question because of the timing of registration (before purchase or after bringing into DC). Then the federal law was opened up to make it legal to purchase a rifle/shotgun regardless of where the purchase took place. State requirements, if any, remained in effect.

Yes, non-residents could prchase a rifle/shotgun via private sale and avoid the background check, but they were still legally under the laws controlling the sale when it was restricted to contiguous states and when their state of residence had requirements they had to comply with such as NC's purchase permit or MD's (mostly) approved firearms list.

It looks as if everybody wants everybody to have to go through a background check - it does nothing to change non-residents having to also comply with their state's requirements. Since the city of Richmond does not appear to have actually drafted a bill for this it is going to be difficult to determine just how close to NY's SAFE Act or CA's assault weapon control things will get. What I really am hoping is that we Virginians can get expert advice and practical demonstrations of how to refuse to comply with "large capacity magazine" registration from an emminent New England activist My offer to pay his transportation, lodging, and food costs remains in effect.

stay safe.

wrearick · Nov 28, 2014

peter nap said:
Virginia only limits magazine capacity of a magazine that is IN the firearm at the time and only in certain areas and CHP holders are exempt from that. It also doesn't apply to rimfires.

Where in that statute do you see a blanket limitation?

Sorry, confusion on how to read the code correctly. section "G" is essentially a definitions list. Item 4 under "Antique Firearms" is:
4. Any curio or relic as defined in this subsection.

It then gives a definition for "Assault Firearm" followed by the definition for "Curios and Relics" - Looking at the code again it is not clear that the subsection referred to in 4 contains the two definitions that immediately follow it but could refer to items 1-3 above it.

The only reference to Assault Firearm that I see in 18.2-308.2:2 is the second paragraph in section B1 which in short states that a dealer can not sell an Assault Firearm to a non Virginian unless certain criteria are met. Now I know that some pistols fall under the category of Assault Firearm but that whole paragraph seems redundant because section B5 says basically the same thing. So in short, I am confused by this code and believe my earlier observation/conclusion to be incorrect.

wrearick · Nov 28, 2014

2a4all said:
18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.B.5. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states under the terms of subsections A and B upon furnishing the dealer with proof of citizenship or status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence and one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services.

Subsections A & B set forth the requirements for background checks; non-residents are not exempt. Section C requires "unless he has first obtained from the Department of State Police a report indicating that a search of all available criminal history record information has not disclosed that the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm under state or federal law." I don't see a non-resident exemption here either.
QUOTE]

I read that differently too as in the only parts of A and B that applied were the parts/terms which "proved" the buyer was a citizen of the United States or person lawfully admitted for permanent residence. Guess I need to review what "notwithstanding" means.....sorry

Richmond Legislative Work Summit for 2015 General Assembly

T Dubya

Campaign Veteran

skidmark

Campaign Veteran

T Dubya

Campaign Veteran

davidmcbeth

Banned

skidmark

Campaign Veteran

wrearick

Regular Member

wrearick

Regular Member

wrearick

Regular Member

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

2a4all

Regular Member

skidmark

Campaign Veteran

wrearick

Regular Member

wrearick

Regular Member