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Fredericksburg PD circumvents gun buy-back law via loophole
- Thread starter TFred
- Start date
"Appears to be gun-gate by proxy" - I like that
TFred
Regular Member
No idea how the judge will rule... I really wish the VCDL complaint had included a city resident who is harmed by the planned destruction of potentially valuable assets that could otherwise be used to reduce the tax burden. That would be an issue of indisputable standing.
TFred
TFred
We have a weiner!
Often VCDL grabs the first Board/Executive Member they can pound into the particular pigeonhole. Especially when time is of the essence.
According to http://fflgundealers.net/ there are over 60 FFLs in the Fredericksburg Zip Codes 22401-08 & 22412. Maintaining a list of VCDL members who are FFLs may not yet be something they do. Then there is the process of contacting them to see who is willing to be a plaintiff which sometimes is like offering to stand in a puddle holding a metal rod during a thunderstorm.
stay safe.
Lyndsy Simon
Regular Member
I will be there - I'm planning on primarily recording the event, including the vehicle and plates of anyone who wants to surrended a firearm to police.
I've also been extensively reading the relevant laws, and if this goes ahead I think I have a way to burn them after-the-fact that no one has mentioned. If it gets to that point, I'll pull someone aside who's more closely tied with the VCDL and share my idea. Otherwise, I'll keep it under my hat.
I've also been extensively reading the relevant laws, and if this goes ahead I think I have a way to burn them after-the-fact that no one has mentioned. If it gets to that point, I'll pull someone aside who's more closely tied with the VCDL and share my idea. Otherwise, I'll keep it under my hat.
Superlite27
Regular Member
Simple answer:
Have an FFL at this "give back" offering to donate $125 to the VCDL for any firearm given to them.
If having a donor give to local non-profits based on the amount of guns "given" is found to be perfectly legal by the court......
.....having an FFL receive donated firearms on behalf of the VCDL has been found to be perfectly legal.
It goes without saying that the firearms received might prove worthy enough to even offset the value of the amount donated to the VCDL.
Nobody can complain.
After all, the court found it to be legal, right?
Have an FFL at this "give back" offering to donate $125 to the VCDL for any firearm given to them.
If having a donor give to local non-profits based on the amount of guns "given" is found to be perfectly legal by the court......
.....having an FFL receive donated firearms on behalf of the VCDL has been found to be perfectly legal.
It goes without saying that the firearms received might prove worthy enough to even offset the value of the amount donated to the VCDL.
Nobody can complain.
After all, the court found it to be legal, right?
Lyndsy Simon
Regular Member
I don't think the legality of a private party doing this is even in question - the problem is that the police department is prohibited from offering compensation in exchange for firearms without a municipal ordinance (which Fredericksburg doesn't appear to have), and are required by law to offer guns acquired in this way for sale to FFLs. They're promising to destroy them.
The law isn't as clear as it would seem at first - for instance, it isn't clear that the valuable consideration be provided to the individual who conveys the firearm to the police. It is clear that it doesn't matter who is offering the consideration.
Here's the law in question:
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TFred
Regular Member
Just for general information, only 22401 is a "normal" Fredericksburg City zip code. All the others are either point zip codes (a PO Box service or no actual residents) or Spotsylvania or Stafford Counties.
TFred
TFred
Regular Member
In what can only be described as an unusually horrible excuse for reporting - even for the Free Lance-Star, they have posted an update on the injunction hearing this afternoon:
Fredericksburg judge gives go-ahead to gun give-back on Saturday
Reading this article, one is left with the clear impression that the matter was heard, considered and decided on the merits of the case.
Nothing could be further from what actually happened.
The City Attorney, in her motions filed earlier, argued that neither of the plaintiffs, VCDL, nor the FFL had standing to bring the complaint to the court. She cited prior cases that had been taken all the way to the Virginia Supreme Court, and convinced the judge that the circumstances of those cases were close enough to apply here as well.
The judge in essence stated that his hands were tied, he had no choice but to dismiss the case. He did however, over the objections of the City Attorney, give the plaintiffs 21 days to amend their case to address the question of standing. I presume that if the standing issue is properly addressed, then the case may proceed, of course, this will be well after the event has taken place.
The City Attorney certainly did her homework, and won the victory today, but what a hollow victory it is: the city now stands free to take action which whether correctly or incorrectly, can at least be reasonably argued to violate State Law, and apparently nobody has the right to ask the courts to even evaluate the merits of the argument, much less hold them accountable if they are in deed doing so. Congratulations to the City Attorney... I guess... if you want to live in a world where governments are not accountable to anyone for their actions.
TFred
Fredericksburg judge gives go-ahead to gun give-back on Saturday
Reading this article, one is left with the clear impression that the matter was heard, considered and decided on the merits of the case.
Nothing could be further from what actually happened.
The City Attorney, in her motions filed earlier, argued that neither of the plaintiffs, VCDL, nor the FFL had standing to bring the complaint to the court. She cited prior cases that had been taken all the way to the Virginia Supreme Court, and convinced the judge that the circumstances of those cases were close enough to apply here as well.
The judge in essence stated that his hands were tied, he had no choice but to dismiss the case. He did however, over the objections of the City Attorney, give the plaintiffs 21 days to amend their case to address the question of standing. I presume that if the standing issue is properly addressed, then the case may proceed, of course, this will be well after the event has taken place.
The City Attorney certainly did her homework, and won the victory today, but what a hollow victory it is: the city now stands free to take action which whether correctly or incorrectly, can at least be reasonably argued to violate State Law, and apparently nobody has the right to ask the courts to even evaluate the merits of the argument, much less hold them accountable if they are in deed doing so. Congratulations to the City Attorney... I guess... if you want to live in a world where governments are not accountable to anyone for their actions.
TFred
TFred
Regular Member
Looks like the FLS has updated their article to include an accurate description of the hearing. I wonder if they're reading this forum!?
TFred
TFred
Lyndsy Simon
Regular Member
There appears to be plenty of parking at the station. I plan to park there if at all possible.
If that's a problem, then there's an apartment complex west of them, and a business district north. It'll be a hike if we can't park on-site - if that's the case, I'll probably be shuttling people back and forth to whereever we can figure out to park. I'll do whatever is necessary to make this happen.
TFred
Regular Member
Not an option on the main street. Cowan Blvd is a busy thoroughfare, with no parking, the two lanes on each side have curbs and sidewalks all along the way.
There is a fairly long driveway from Cowan to the PD parking area, I'm not sure if you can park along that drive or not. They could have "no parking" signs there. I can check this later today and update.
There is a school to the southeast, so that entire property would be off-limits if you possess a gun. It's a lower school, so not much parking there anyway.
Directly to the northwest of the station are several apartment complexes (ETA: and not the best residents in town...), likely to restrict parking to residents or visitors. The private towing industry is alive and well in the city, they are quite likely to be aware of this event (they can smell the blood) and I suspect they will be monitoring the area just waiting to tow your car. Yes, I'm absolutely serious.
More, older apartments directly across the street from the PD driveway, I suspect the same parking restrictions and risk of towing there as well.
Any property owner who might tow your car is required to have posted signs to that effect at or near the entrances to the property, and most are in compliance with that requirement. But no guarantee, just like everything else, the law has gums instead of teeth, and you could be spending the rest of your day trying to get your car back.
Across Cowan a little farther to the northwest is a small business area, including medical services and a little farther, restaurants. The Italian restaurant Basilico, is about 1/3 of a mile walk, and one of the better Italian places in town. Maybe a good spot for lunch? Owned by the same folks who run the several Vinny's in town.
Here's the Google map of the area. The PD is the white rectangular roofed building on the south side of Cowan. You can see the school to the southeast and the apartments all around.
I am attending a funeral during this time tomorrow, so I am unable to be there. Good luck to all who can!
TFred
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Lyndsy Simon
Regular Member
Seeing as the PD is a government building, I see no reason why we can't park right there.
If not, I'll happily shuttle people to and from where ever we figure out. It looks like there is a hospital about two-tenths of a mile north of the PD that seems a likely place.
If you're going and might want a ride, let me know. I've already sent a couple of you PMs with my phone number in case you need a ride, and am happy to do the same for others. I'll also be checking the forum from my phone, so even if you decide last minute, just shoot me a PM.
Finally, I'd like to point out that this isn't the only thing going on tomorrow. The VCDL doesn't appear to be organizing anything for Fredericksburg but they are organizing attendance of a city meeting at 9:30 in Alexandria, in protest of their PD's illegal gunbuster signage. I feel like the buy-back issue is more important, so that's where I'll be - but the VCDL would value your attendance in Alexandria as well.
Actually I think the OC event is more important Lyndsy, at least to open carry people and I'm glad to see VCDL get off their backsides and represent open carry for a change. If they don't screw up in the General Assembly this year, I may even join again.
On the other hand, I don't go north of the Ni and I'm stretching my principles by going to Fredricksburg. I also think there's more chance of police misconduct there.
Please let us know if you see Ms Conduct or any of her inlaws
TFred
Regular Member
Wouldn't that be outlaws??Please let us know if you see Ms Conduct or any of her inlaws
TFred