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Thread: I594, OK DOL, what do I do now?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I594, OK DOL, what do I do now?

    Tomorrow it starts, or goes into effect, or is it something else? Has anyone seen the "rules" yet? I want to "transfer" a few firearms and a nail gun this weekend and I am not quite sure how to go about it.
    Should I call the Sheriff, or Ch of B'ham Police for guidance? Should I email, write, call, text patty murry and the rest of the oly crowd for guidance? Maybe mayor bloomburg can give us a class on how to do it.

    I could be wrong (the thing is vague at best) but it reads as tho the DOL is supposed to decide the "rules and regs" for this nitemare of a piece of legislation. I feel like I am being set up for an arrest for not knowing the letter of the (as of now unwritten) law.

    I need clarification. You need clarification. We deserve clarification by thoise we have elected and those who work for the Public. To do this I suggest we ask. All of us. Ask everyone what the rules are until we get an answer or they drop it as unworkable.

    Call, write, visit, email, the DA, the house rep, senators, the Sheriff. Below are the DOL numbers

    Director’s Office
    Pat Kohler, Agency Director
    Department of Licensing
    PO Box 9020
    Olympia, WA 98507-9020

    Phone: 360.902.3600
    (TTY users, please call 360.664.0116)

    If we point out the problems, they just might scrap it. Citizenship is a Verb, be a squeeky wheel.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  2. #2
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    Rules for what?

    You guys know you can walk in to any FFL and pay for a NICS right now, right?

    Assuming, arguendo, that the law is constitutional and not void from the start, it does not place any affirmative burden on the Citizen to prove compliance to the state. The state still has the burden to establish probable cause for charges and prove their case to a jury. There will be no prove-this-is-your-gun and prove-you-acquired-it-before-594 questions on the street.

    I realize you guys are smart, and are just playing dumb - being coy to put it another way, just to stir the pot, but there are real answers to your questions.

    Let's just hope it's struck down.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Done

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    My email to all the Oak Harbor city council members. I would encourage everyone to do the same to their city councils and insert other stores in their cities as appropriate:

    Dear ....,
    I am sure you are aware that on December 2 Governor Inslee and Secretary of State Wyman certified the 2014 General Election results which means that I-594 will go into effect as written as law on December 4. I am fairly certain that the majority of members on the Oak Harbor City Council voted yes on I-594. I would ask that City Council of Oak Harbor insist upon enforcement of this new law within the incorporated city limits. This new law has created at least two illegal retail dealers in firearms within the city limits.

    RCW 9.41.010 continues to define a firearm, as it always has:
    "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

    I-594 adds RCW 9.41.010 (17):
    "Person" means any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, club, organization, society, joint stock company, or other legal entity.

    I-594 also adds a new section to RCW 9.41:
    All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.

    According to new law in effect December 4, Home Depot in Oak Harbor is selling a semi-automatic firearm in violation of the law if they do so without delivering it to an FFL for transfer to the buyer after completion of a background check. The semi-automatic firearm is the Ramset Cobra+ Model #16941. In addition, Home Depot is selling a single shot firearm (which is very similar in physical appearance to an “assault weapon”), the Ramset MasterShot Model #40088.

    Wal Mart in Oak Harbor is now selling a single shot firearm, the Orion 12 Guage Alerter Basic flare gun in violation of the new law. (I-594 even adds that “gun” has the same meaning as “firearm”). These flare guns have already been classified by Matthew Noedel of the WSP Crime Lab as firearms in this report:
    http://www.noedelscientific.com/user/flaregun1.pdf

    This issue is important to me because I work in Oak Harbor every day and shop in these stores frequently. Councilmember, Oak Harbor has been given the opportunity to lead the state in the fight against gun violence. Surely you would not want just anyone walking into a City Council meeting in possession of one of these firearms that they just purchased off the shelf at one of the stores in Oak Harbor without having a background check done.

    I would like to see the City Council pass a motion officially requesting the city attorney to file for a cease and desist order to stop these retail stores from flagrantly violating this “common sense” background check law in Oak Harbor. This action would put Oak Harbor at the top of Washington communities willing to take a stand to ensure that criminals do not have guns and that our children are protected.

    Very Respectfully,
    John H....
    Stanwood, WA
    360-720......
    Thank You for doing the heavy lifiting on this, it made my email easier to compose. Also hit most of my county council members.


    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  4. #4
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    I'm curious to know how I594 became certified without counting all the votes.
    I checked king counties tracker and my ballot is STILL waiting to be counted.
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

    "A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." -Gerald R. Ford

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-8x-Hilti...item58b90addfc

    53 min left for someone to try the 'report' feature on Ebay. Who feels like narking on Boeing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-8x-Hilti...item58b90addfc

    53 min left for someone to try the 'report' feature on Ebay. Who feels like narking on Boeing?
    This ought to be funneh.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    My email to all the Oak Harbor city council members. I would encourage everyone to do the same to their city councils and insert other stores in their cities as appropriate:

    Dear ....,
    I am sure you are aware that on December 2 Governor Inslee and Secretary of State Wyman certified the 2014 General Election results which means that I-594 will go into effect as written as law on December 4. I am fairly certain that the majority of members on the Oak Harbor City Council voted yes on I-594. I would ask that City Council of Oak Harbor insist upon enforcement of this new law within the incorporated city limits. This new law has created at least two illegal retail dealers in firearms within the city limits.

    RCW 9.41.010 continues to define a firearm, as it always has:
    "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

    I-594 adds RCW 9.41.010 (17):
    "Person" means any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, club, organization, society, joint stock company, or other legal entity.

    I-594 also adds a new section to RCW 9.41:
    All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.

    According to new law in effect December 4, Home Depot in Oak Harbor is selling a semi-automatic firearm in violation of the law if they do so without delivering it to an FFL for transfer to the buyer after completion of a background check. The semi-automatic firearm is the Ramset Cobra+ Model #16941. In addition, Home Depot is selling a single shot firearm (which is very similar in physical appearance to an “assault weapon”), the Ramset MasterShot Model #40088.

    Wal Mart in Oak Harbor is now selling a single shot firearm, the Orion 12 Guage Alerter Basic flare gun in violation of the new law. (I-594 even adds that “gun” has the same meaning as “firearm”). These flare guns have already been classified by Matthew Noedel of the WSP Crime Lab as firearms in this report:
    http://www.noedelscientific.com/user/flaregun1.pdf

    This issue is important to me because I work in Oak Harbor every day and shop in these stores frequently. Councilmember, Oak Harbor has been given the opportunity to lead the state in the fight against gun violence. Surely you would not want just anyone walking into a City Council meeting in possession of one of these firearms that they just purchased off the shelf at one of the stores in Oak Harbor without having a background check done.

    I would like to see the City Council pass a motion officially requesting the city attorney to file for a cease and desist order to stop these retail stores from flagrantly violating this “common sense” background check law in Oak Harbor. This action would put Oak Harbor at the top of Washington communities willing to take a stand to ensure that criminals do not have guns and that our children are protected.

    Very Respectfully,
    John H....
    Stanwood, WA
    360-720......
    Thanks for this, I emailed my county council members in Whatcom County with a modified version of this note.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Rules for what?

    You guys know you can walk in to any FFL and pay for a NICS right now, right?

    Assuming, arguendo, that the law is constitutional and not void from the start, it does not place any affirmative burden on the Citizen to prove compliance to the state. The state still has the burden to establish probable cause for charges and prove their case to a jury. There will be no prove-this-is-your-gun and prove-you-acquired-it-before-594 questions on the street.

    I realize you guys are smart, and are just playing dumb - being coy to put it another way, just to stir the pot, but there are real answers to your questions.

    Let's just hope it's struck down.
    well, it requires you to buy from a ffl instead of a private party; it requires you to undergo a useless BR chk, it requires you to pay $$ via taxes and higher gun costs, etc. Hardly not a burden IMO.

    And yes, the burden is upon the state -- but the procedure or process (ie trial) will still cost a citizen money to address.

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    What if they don't prove that the "firearm" could be fired?


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    I wrote my county council members about that. This should be amusing.

  11. #11
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    well, it requires you to buy from a ffl instead of a private party;


    No it doesn't. Where did you get that idea?

  12. #12
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    is supposed to deliver the nail gun to the buyer's FFL for a background check.


    The buyer's FFL or any FFL?

    What about the state ensuring that Home Depot and all the other stores comply with the law?



    What about it? They're not FFL items, so hardware stores don't need to apply for a license, if that's the tree you're barking up. Again, it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more than it's up to the state to ensure private party compliance. The burden is the same.

  13. #13
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    Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.

    it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more


    any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

    I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.
    Last edited by deanf; 12-05-2014 at 01:34 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.



    any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

    I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.[/COLOR]
    IDK. Can the WSP only enforce the speed limit against black cars? Would that be legal? They don't HAVE to enforce the speed limit laws, right.

    Would it be legal for them to only enforce the speed limit against black drivers? Would that be legal? They don't HAVE to enforce the speed limit laws, right.

    So yeah, we have this cool new gun control law. It'll surely be fine if they only enforce it against non-corporate entities.

    I doubt that would end up giving anybody standing for a lawsuit after a few years of that fair and even handed application of coercive state power (or is that corrosive state power?).

    [tongue in cheek, mostly]

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Now, if it isn't up to the state to enforce the law when Home Depot and Lowes have these firearms for sale on their shelves and offers these items for sale over the internet to residents of the state of Washington without requiring the background check then exactly who is it up to enforce the law? And what about Boeing using an auction company to sell their firearms from the state of Washington to any buyer that will buy them, without requiring a background check. If it isn't up to the state to enforce the law upon Boeing then who is it up to? And notice the wording of the statute - a background check is required if either the seller OR the buyer is located in Washington state.

    Ever heard of a sting operation? All that has to happen is a law enforcement officer in plain clothes walks into a Home Depot and buys a powder actuated nail gun off the shelf and walks out of the store with it and now you have probable cause, if the fact that the item is offered for sale on the shelf with no indication that an FFL transfer is required isn't enough probable cause already. Heck, a law enforcement officer in Florida could buy a powder actuated nail gun from a seller in Washington from Ebay and receive it at his house and forward all that information to Washington law enforcement and that would establish probable cause that the seller violated the law even though the buyer, being in Florida, was under no obligation to obtain a background check.

    http://fortune.com/2014/12/02/drug-w...ica-silk-road/
    In July, the Feds indicted FedEx on charges that it “conspired” with crooked pharmacies that illegally sold prescription drugs online.

    The federal government argues that FedEx continued to do business with these pharmacies even after they should have suspected that their customers were shipping illegal drugs.

    But FedEx has rejected the notion that it should be responsible for monitoring its customers and what they ship.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Interogative

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.



    any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

    I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.[/COLOR]
    Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

    If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

    If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

    ~Whitney
    You'd only get arrested, if they enforce the law as written.

    But like most laws; If uniformly applied, then the system would break under the weight (i.e. speeding laws, tax laws, etc).
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 12-05-2014 at 10:47 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

    If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

    ~Whitney
    steps to take to get arrested

    1) Purchase the powder actuated nail gun at store, if no background check is done then proceed to step 2.
    2) Call the Police/Sheriff and inform them that you just purchased a firearm illegally an you wish a LEO to come and arrest you for your violating the law.
    3) If they will not arrest you, get a copy of the police report and any other documentation showing you tried to turn yourself in.
    4) Contact an attorney, the media, and whoever will help with your case of injustice. You broke the law and you want to be arrested and don't take no for an answer.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Here's the difference.
    The law in question in this thread requires the seller of a firearm to deliver the firearm to an FFL for transfer. When Home Depot sells a firearm, the law we are discussing requires Home Depot to deliver the firearm to the FFL. If the law required the buyer to get their own background check, that would be the entire same situation as FEDEX.
    As I read it, it requires the seller to take it to an FFL, who will enter it into HIS inventory.
    As for the device itself, I submit the video attached. This appears to be an armor piercing round that dumps all its energy on contact. I may stop by Lowes and pick up a box.

    http://youtu.be/MOZpy55U-jY
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  20. #20
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    :~(

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    steps to take to get arrested

    1) Purchase the powder actuated nail gun at store, if no background check is done then proceed to step 2.
    2) Call the Police/Sheriff and inform them that you just purchased a firearm illegally an you wish a LEO to come and arrest you for your violating the law.
    3) If they will not arrest you, get a copy of the police report and any other documentation showing you tried to turn yourself in.
    4) Contact an attorney, the media, and whoever will help with your case of injustice. You broke the law and you want to be arrested and don't take no for an answer.
    MSG Laigaie beat me to it. The point I was trying to talk around is the "SELLER" has to deliver the firearm to the FFL where the 4473 is then filled out.

    Maybe you could observe me buy one and then report the big box store for conducting an unlawful transfer.

    You and I can get arrested all day, (not likely in this case) but until pressure is on the box stores nothing is going to happen.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    MSG Laigaie beat me to it. The point I was trying to talk around is the "SELLER" has to deliver the firearm to the FFL where the 4473 is then filled out.

    Maybe you could observe me buy one and then report the big box store for conducting an unlawful transfer.

    You and I can get arrested all day, (not likely in this case) but until pressure is on the box stores nothing is going to happen.

    ~Whitney
    I was just being a smart a$$. Thats the problem with the written word, it cannot convey my "Bob Newhart" style of humor

  22. #22
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    You bring up a very good question of RCW 9.41.010 (7), that we can’t interpret for you. You may have to seek your own legal advice to your question.
    In other words, they won't tell you how to avoid breaking the law but will happily prosecute you for doing so. How precisely would a lawyer help with interpreting how a new law will be enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    What about it? They're not FFL items, so hardware stores don't need to apply for a license, if that's the tree you're barking up. Again, it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more than it's up to the state to ensure private party compliance. The burden is the same.
    Yeah, you have a point, that they're not FFL licensees. As we all know, the state of Washington does not have any state-level statutes and does not operate state prisons, since all non-federal laws have been abolished. Oh, wait, you mean there are state laws? Whoops. Under I-594, all of those items that didn't need a background check to transfer suddenly do. Failing to run the check isn't illegal under federal law, but I-594 was not a federal bill and did not create a federal law -- it created a state law.

    It is indeed up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance with state statutes.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Defusing a bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    I was just being a smart a$$. Thats the problem with the written word, it cannot convey my "Bob Newhart" style of humor
    Me too. ....I get it.




    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Unhappy 4th of July

    I'm really going to miss those mortars on the 4th of July. I bet the charities that run the fireworks stands are going to take a real hit with they can't sell mortars, roman candles or any number of things that get launched.

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Me too. ....I get it.




    ~Whitney

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