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I594, OK DOL, what do I do now?

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
Tomorrow it starts, or goes into effect, or is it something else? Has anyone seen the "rules" yet? I want to "transfer" a few firearms and a nail gun this weekend and I am not quite sure how to go about it.
Should I call the Sheriff, or Ch of B'ham Police for guidance? Should I email, write, call, text patty murry and the rest of the oly crowd for guidance? Maybe mayor bloomburg can give us a class on how to do it.

I could be wrong (the thing is vague at best) but it reads as tho the DOL is supposed to decide the "rules and regs" for this nitemare of a piece of legislation. I feel like I am being set up for an arrest for not knowing the letter of the (as of now unwritten) law.

I need clarification. You need clarification. We deserve clarification by thoise we have elected and those who work for the Public. To do this I suggest we ask. All of us. Ask everyone what the rules are until we get an answer or they drop it as unworkable.

Call, write, visit, email, the DA, the house rep, senators, the Sheriff. Below are the DOL numbers

Director’s Office
Pat Kohler, Agency Director
Department of Licensing
PO Box 9020
Olympia, WA 98507-9020

Phone: 360.902.3600
(TTY users, please call 360.664.0116)

If we point out the problems, they just might scrap it. Citizenship is a Verb, be a squeeky wheel.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Rules for what?

You guys know you can walk in to any FFL and pay for a NICS right now, right?

Assuming, arguendo, that the law is constitutional and not void from the start, it does not place any affirmative burden on the Citizen to prove compliance to the state. The state still has the burden to establish probable cause for charges and prove their case to a jury. There will be no prove-this-is-your-gun and prove-you-acquired-it-before-594 questions on the street.

I realize you guys are smart, and are just playing dumb - being coy to put it another way, just to stir the pot, but there are real answers to your questions.

Let's just hope it's struck down.
 

Whitney

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
435
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
Done

My email to all the Oak Harbor city council members. I would encourage everyone to do the same to their city councils and insert other stores in their cities as appropriate:

Dear ....,
I am sure you are aware that on December 2 Governor Inslee and Secretary of State Wyman certified the 2014 General Election results which means that I-594 will go into effect as written as law on December 4. I am fairly certain that the majority of members on the Oak Harbor City Council voted yes on I-594. I would ask that City Council of Oak Harbor insist upon enforcement of this new law within the incorporated city limits. This new law has created at least two illegal retail dealers in firearms within the city limits.

RCW 9.41.010 continues to define a firearm, as it always has:
"Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

I-594 adds RCW 9.41.010 (17):
"Person" means any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, club, organization, society, joint stock company, or other legal entity.

I-594 also adds a new section to RCW 9.41:
All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.

According to new law in effect December 4, Home Depot in Oak Harbor is selling a semi-automatic firearm in violation of the law if they do so without delivering it to an FFL for transfer to the buyer after completion of a background check. The semi-automatic firearm is the Ramset Cobra+ Model #16941. In addition, Home Depot is selling a single shot firearm (which is very similar in physical appearance to an “assault weapon”), the Ramset MasterShot Model #40088.

Wal Mart in Oak Harbor is now selling a single shot firearm, the Orion 12 Guage Alerter Basic flare gun in violation of the new law. (I-594 even adds that “gun” has the same meaning as “firearm”). These flare guns have already been classified by Matthew Noedel of the WSP Crime Lab as firearms in this report:
http://www.noedelscientific.com/user/flaregun1.pdf

This issue is important to me because I work in Oak Harbor every day and shop in these stores frequently. Councilmember, Oak Harbor has been given the opportunity to lead the state in the fight against gun violence. Surely you would not want just anyone walking into a City Council meeting in possession of one of these firearms that they just purchased off the shelf at one of the stores in Oak Harbor without having a background check done.

I would like to see the City Council pass a motion officially requesting the city attorney to file for a cease and desist order to stop these retail stores from flagrantly violating this “common sense” background check law in Oak Harbor. This action would put Oak Harbor at the top of Washington communities willing to take a stand to ensure that criminals do not have guns and that our children are protected.

Very Respectfully,
John H....
Stanwood, WA
360-720......

Thank You for doing the heavy lifiting on this, it made my email easier to compose. Also hit most of my county council members.


~Whitney
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
I'm curious to know how I594 became certified without counting all the votes.
I checked king counties tracker and my ballot is STILL waiting to be counted.
 

Jered

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
162
Location
Whatcom County
My email to all the Oak Harbor city council members. I would encourage everyone to do the same to their city councils and insert other stores in their cities as appropriate:

Dear ....,
I am sure you are aware that on December 2 Governor Inslee and Secretary of State Wyman certified the 2014 General Election results which means that I-594 will go into effect as written as law on December 4. I am fairly certain that the majority of members on the Oak Harbor City Council voted yes on I-594. I would ask that City Council of Oak Harbor insist upon enforcement of this new law within the incorporated city limits. This new law has created at least two illegal retail dealers in firearms within the city limits.

RCW 9.41.010 continues to define a firearm, as it always has:
"Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

I-594 adds RCW 9.41.010 (17):
"Person" means any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, club, organization, society, joint stock company, or other legal entity.

I-594 also adds a new section to RCW 9.41:
All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.

According to new law in effect December 4, Home Depot in Oak Harbor is selling a semi-automatic firearm in violation of the law if they do so without delivering it to an FFL for transfer to the buyer after completion of a background check. The semi-automatic firearm is the Ramset Cobra+ Model #16941. In addition, Home Depot is selling a single shot firearm (which is very similar in physical appearance to an “assault weapon”), the Ramset MasterShot Model #40088.

Wal Mart in Oak Harbor is now selling a single shot firearm, the Orion 12 Guage Alerter Basic flare gun in violation of the new law. (I-594 even adds that “gun” has the same meaning as “firearm”). These flare guns have already been classified by Matthew Noedel of the WSP Crime Lab as firearms in this report:
http://www.noedelscientific.com/user/flaregun1.pdf

This issue is important to me because I work in Oak Harbor every day and shop in these stores frequently. Councilmember, Oak Harbor has been given the opportunity to lead the state in the fight against gun violence. Surely you would not want just anyone walking into a City Council meeting in possession of one of these firearms that they just purchased off the shelf at one of the stores in Oak Harbor without having a background check done.

I would like to see the City Council pass a motion officially requesting the city attorney to file for a cease and desist order to stop these retail stores from flagrantly violating this “common sense” background check law in Oak Harbor. This action would put Oak Harbor at the top of Washington communities willing to take a stand to ensure that criminals do not have guns and that our children are protected.

Very Respectfully,
John H....
Stanwood, WA
360-720......

Thanks for this, I emailed my county council members in Whatcom County with a modified version of this note.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Rules for what?

You guys know you can walk in to any FFL and pay for a NICS right now, right?

Assuming, arguendo, that the law is constitutional and not void from the start, it does not place any affirmative burden on the Citizen to prove compliance to the state. The state still has the burden to establish probable cause for charges and prove their case to a jury. There will be no prove-this-is-your-gun and prove-you-acquired-it-before-594 questions on the street.

I realize you guys are smart, and are just playing dumb - being coy to put it another way, just to stir the pot, but there are real answers to your questions.

Let's just hope it's struck down.

well, it requires you to buy from a ffl instead of a private party; it requires you to undergo a useless BR chk, it requires you to pay $$ via taxes and higher gun costs, etc. Hardly not a burden IMO.

And yes, the burden is upon the state -- but the procedure or process (ie trial) will still cost a citizen money to address.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
is supposed to deliver the nail gun to the buyer's FFL for a background check.


The buyer's FFL or any FFL?

What about the state ensuring that Home Depot and all the other stores comply with the law?



What about it? They're not FFL items, so hardware stores don't need to apply for a license, if that's the tree you're barking up. Again, it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more than it's up to the state to ensure private party compliance. The burden is the same.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.

it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more


any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.
 
Last edited:

Dave_pro2a

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Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.



any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.[/COLOR]

IDK. Can the WSP only enforce the speed limit against black cars? Would that be legal? They don't HAVE to enforce the speed limit laws, right.

Would it be legal for them to only enforce the speed limit against black drivers? Would that be legal? They don't HAVE to enforce the speed limit laws, right.

So yeah, we have this cool new gun control law. It'll surely be fine if they only enforce it against non-corporate entities.

I doubt that would end up giving anybody standing for a lawsuit after a few years of that fair and even handed application of coercive state power (or is that corrosive state power?).

[tongue in cheek, mostly]
 

Dave_pro2a

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Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
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Location
, ,
Now, if it isn't up to the state to enforce the law when Home Depot and Lowes have these firearms for sale on their shelves and offers these items for sale over the internet to residents of the state of Washington without requiring the background check then exactly who is it up to enforce the law? And what about Boeing using an auction company to sell their firearms from the state of Washington to any buyer that will buy them, without requiring a background check. If it isn't up to the state to enforce the law upon Boeing then who is it up to? And notice the wording of the statute - a background check is required if either the seller OR the buyer is located in Washington state.

Ever heard of a sting operation? All that has to happen is a law enforcement officer in plain clothes walks into a Home Depot and buys a powder actuated nail gun off the shelf and walks out of the store with it and now you have probable cause, if the fact that the item is offered for sale on the shelf with no indication that an FFL transfer is required isn't enough probable cause already. Heck, a law enforcement officer in Florida could buy a powder actuated nail gun from a seller in Washington from Ebay and receive it at his house and forward all that information to Washington law enforcement and that would establish probable cause that the seller violated the law even though the buyer, being in Florida, was under no obligation to obtain a background check.


http://fortune.com/2014/12/02/drug-war-corporate-america-silk-road/
In July, the Feds indicted FedEx on charges that it “conspired” with crooked pharmacies that illegally sold prescription drugs online.

The federal government argues that FedEx continued to do business with these pharmacies even after they should have suspected that their customers were shipping illegal drugs.

But FedEx has rejected the notion that it should be responsible for monitoring its customers and what they ship.
 

Whitney

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Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
435
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
Interogative

Who says hardware stores or Boeing aren't going to require a NICS check? Further, note that I never said it isn't up to the state to ensure compliance, but that the states burden to assure compliance is the same, hardware store or private person.



any more being the key words. Put another way, there's not a burden on the state to provide for more assurance of compliance with a hardware store or other retailer as opposed to assuring the compliance of any citizen.

I submit that the state has no duty to assure compliance by anyone, and their only duty is to investigate and prosecute crimes after the fact.[/COLOR]

Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

~Whitney
 

Dave_pro2a

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Joined
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, ,
Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

~Whitney

You'd only get arrested, if they enforce the law as written.

But like most laws; If uniformly applied, then the system would break under the weight (i.e. speeding laws, tax laws, etc).
 
Last edited:

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
Would it be fair to say the purchase of one of these "devices" from the local big box store constitutes a crime under 594?

If yes, then how do I get arrested for it?

~Whitney

steps to take to get arrested

1) Purchase the powder actuated nail gun at store, if no background check is done then proceed to step 2.
2) Call the Police/Sheriff and inform them that you just purchased a firearm illegally an you wish a LEO to come and arrest you for your violating the law.
3) If they will not arrest you, get a copy of the police report and any other documentation showing you tried to turn yourself in.
4) Contact an attorney, the media, and whoever will help with your case of injustice. You broke the law and you want to be arrested and don't take no for an answer.;)
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
Here's the difference.
The law in question in this thread requires the seller of a firearm to deliver the firearm to an FFL for transfer. When Home Depot sells a firearm, the law we are discussing requires Home Depot to deliver the firearm to the FFL. If the law required the buyer to get their own background check, that would be the entire same situation as FEDEX.

As I read it, it requires the seller to take it to an FFL, who will enter it into HIS inventory.
As for the device itself, I submit the video attached. This appears to be an armor piercing round that dumps all its energy on contact. I may stop by Lowes and pick up a box.

http://youtu.be/MOZpy55U-jY
 

Whitney

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
435
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
:~(

steps to take to get arrested

1) Purchase the powder actuated nail gun at store, if no background check is done then proceed to step 2.
2) Call the Police/Sheriff and inform them that you just purchased a firearm illegally an you wish a LEO to come and arrest you for your violating the law.
3) If they will not arrest you, get a copy of the police report and any other documentation showing you tried to turn yourself in.
4) Contact an attorney, the media, and whoever will help with your case of injustice. You broke the law and you want to be arrested and don't take no for an answer.;)

MSG Laigaie beat me to it. The point I was trying to talk around is the "SELLER" has to deliver the firearm to the FFL where the 4473 is then filled out.

Maybe you could observe me buy one and then report the big box store for conducting an unlawful transfer. :p

You and I can get arrested all day, (not likely in this case) but until pressure is on the box stores nothing is going to happen.

~Whitney
 
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