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Thread: Non-Violent Felons and Firearm Ownership

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    Non-Violent Felons and Firearm Ownership

    I've tried looking around a bit, but not much luck so far. Are there ways for non-violent felons to appeal to the State to regain gun ownership rights? I know it has happened in other states such as Nevada, but not sure where we are on this issue in Missouri. I know felons can legally own black powder and black powder firearms, but that's the limit of my knowledge. Thanks.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg2185 View Post
    I've tried looking around a bit, but not much luck so far. Are there ways for non-violent felons to appeal to the State to regain gun ownership rights? I know it has happened in other states such as Nevada, but not sure where we are on this issue in Missouri. I know felons can legally own black powder and black powder firearms, but that's the limit of my knowledge. Thanks.
    Contact an attorney.
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    IF it is a Missouri felony the only way to remove is with a gubNor pardon good luck on that. If the felony is from another state well then see that states statues for information.

    I also agree with WalkingWolf retain the services of a good Attorney.
    Last edited by Renegadez; 12-09-2014 at 04:58 PM.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegadez View Post
    IF it is a Missouri felony the only way to remove is with a gubNor pardon good luck on that. If the felony is from another state well then see that states statues for information.

    I also agree with WalkingWolf retain the services of a good Attorney.
    ^^^
    Concur!!

    Although, there is the MO Supreme Court case being heard to day for non-violent felons since the passing of A5. Guess we will find out what A5 means for non-violent felons.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Deleted post - not the OP.
    You are wrong, pleading guilty to a felony leaves you with a felony conviction.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-17-2014 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Quote & reference deleted by request
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Deleted post - not the OP.
    Maybe you can provide some cites/statute that says a suspended sentence is not a conviction.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-17-2014 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Quote & reference deleted by request
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Deleted post - not the OP.
    That is because the conviction does not come up on a background check, but your conviction if I understand correctly HAS NOT been expunged and is still part of court house records. Also I understand the only option for Mo is a pardon, no expunge. So if ATF for some reason does a check of county records they will find the conviction and you may possibly in deep doo doo.

    Felons have been known to pass background checks all the time, it has happened in NC. Many times the clerk just misses entering the conviction into the data base, does not change it. Understand federal law that they do not care how much time you actually spend in jail, only what you could have been sentenced to for a specific crime. IMO you are walking a tight rope, it may never cause a problem with Mo LE, but the feds are a different story. If you are convicted of another crime your SIS will used during sentencing as a conviction from what I have read.

    Just because you don't get caught does not mean you are not breaking federal law. Feds recognize the complete removal of a conviction such as expunging that conviction or pardoning. You really need to talk to a attorney that is well read on federal BATF laws and regulations.

    I wish you luck.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-17-2014 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Quote & reference deleted by request
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)

    A no contest plea or nolo contendere is like saying, "There is no way for me to contest this charge, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I am not admitting guilt." The judge then makes a decision of whether or not to convict you based on the evidence presented against you, which is usually a verdict of guilty since there is no defense. If you consider yourself a felon or if you have a felony on your record, I'm pretty sure that means you were convicted of a felony. Doesn't matter what you plead, ATF Form 4473 sec. 11.c asks if you were convicted. Also as was already covered, if your sentence could have exceeded 1 year you are disqualified even if you are not a felon.

    You could have been charged with a felony, but plead no contest to a lesser misdemeanor with a penalty of not more than 1 year and still be legit, but you'd still have been convicted of a misdemeanor.

    Just because someone pleads not guilty does not mean they are not guilty and therefore not convicted, that's just the plea they entered. The judge or jury may still find the person guilty. By the same logic, if you are not a felon that would mean anyone who enters a not guilty plea on a felony is also not a felon - which makes no sense and is not true.

    I'd say you've gotten especially lucky in passing background checks, but if you are indeed a felon you've committed several violations including Federal perjury. I'd probably delete this thread and contact a lawyer immediately. Don't want to get caught as a felon with illegal firearms.

    Again, I am not a lawyer, and I could very well be wrong about this, but I don't think I am. I think the only advantages to a no contest plea are exhibited in a civil matter regarding the charge or just the fact that you never actually admitted to doing anything wrong.
    Last edited by The Truth; 12-16-2014 at 01:07 AM. Reason: BOLD
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)

    A no contest plea or nolo contendere is like saying, "There is no way for me to contest this charge, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I am not admitting guilt." The judge then makes a decision of whether or not to convict you based on the evidence presented against you, which is usually a verdict of guilty since there is no defense. If you consider yourself a felon or if you have a felony on your record, I'm pretty sure that means you were convicted of a felony. Doesn't matter what you plead, ATF Form 4473 sec. 11.c asks if you were convicted. Also as was already covered, if your sentence could have exceeded 1 year you are disqualified even if you are not a felon.

    You could have been charged with a felony, but plead no contest to a lesser misdemeanor with a penalty of not more than 1 year and still be legit, but you'd still have been convicted of a misdemeanor.

    Just because someone pleads not guilty does not mean they are not guilty and therefore not convicted, that's just the plea they entered. The judge or jury may still find the person guilty. By the same logic, if you are not a felon that would mean anyone who enters a not guilty plea on a felony is also not a felon - which makes no sense and is not true.

    I'd say you've gotten especially lucky in passing background checks, but if you are indeed a felon you've committed several violations including Federal perjury. I'd probably delete this thread and contact a lawyer immediately. Don't want to get caught as a felon with illegal firearms.

    Again, I am not a lawyer, and I could very well be wrong about this, but I don't think I am. I think the only advantages to a no contest plea are exhibited in a civil matter regarding the charge or just the fact that you never actually admitted to doing anything wrong.
    He got lucky because he got a suspended sentence, which in many states is like a plea to traffic offenses which do not show up on the data base, but are still a conviction. AND if a second offense happens they know this because it is on county records. A suspended sentence is not an expunge or a pardon. Both completely remove the offense, and conviction as if they never happened. BATF recognizes a expunged record as conviction free. They do not recognize a suspended sentence, which is what SIS is.

    Even though he passes a computer check, does not change that the records are available with a physical search of records. If he should get arrested for a criminal offense, and the state checks his record he will find himself in a spot. Especially if he has firearm in his possession at the time of arrest.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    He got lucky because he got a suspended sentence, which in many states is like a plea to traffic offenses which do not show up on the data base, but are still a conviction. AND if a second offense happens they know this because it is on county records. A suspended sentence is not an expunge or a pardon. Both completely remove the offense, and conviction as if they never happened. BATF recognizes a expunged record as conviction free. They do not recognize a suspended sentence, which is what SIS is.

    Even though he passes a computer check, does not change that the records are available with a physical search of records. If he should get arrested for a criminal offense, and the state checks his record he will find himself in a spot. Especially if he has firearm in his possession at the time of arrest.
    Interesting. I have a different understanding of a suspended sentence and its effect (or lack thereof) on one's ability to purchase a firearm.

    A suspended sentence just means you are sentenced to jail time but you don't have to go to jail provided you complete some terms which are laid out by the judge or DA/CA - and which usually just cost money and inconvenience. It's all a money game, really. My terms were "don't get in trouble again."
    Last edited by The Truth; 12-17-2014 at 12:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Good luck to you! I hope it works out!

    Just a question though (you don't have to answer) - if the charge was BS why did you plead no contest especially to a felony? As long as you're not a troublemaker you can usually offer to plead guilty or no contest to a lesser charge. Of course that's assuming you're not a troublemaker...haha.
    Last edited by The Truth; 12-17-2014 at 12:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Deleted post - not the OP.
    Talk to a good lawyer, if he says to eliminate your posting history, do it pronto.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-17-2014 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Quote & reference deleted by request
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Deleted post - not the OP.


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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-17-2014 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Quote & reference deleted by request
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    FYi

    MO is kinda convoluted on the SIS issue in fact folks screw it up themselves. I am not a lawyer but I do tend to look around at differeing legal situations a lot.

    MO has two kinds of things that happen SIS which IS a guilty plea and Suspended Imposition of Sentence but it becomes a sealed record and the person may legally claim no convictions on job applications etc if they serve out probation etc. From a practical view, the conviction does not exist except for use in future criminal cases.

    SES which is execution of sentence is similar but not sealed and is a clear conviction.

    It is my understanding that an SIS does not limit ownership or handling but does impact CCW from THIS state, SES eliminates it all.

    From a lawyer: "So why would a person want SIS probation or SES probation? A first offender will ordinarily seek an SIS because an SIS becomes closed record, under the Sunshine law in Missouri, upon successful completion of probation, and is not considered a conviction for purposes other than subsequent criminal prosecutions. The defendant may also be entitled to deny any prior convictions on applications for employment if he successfully completed his SIS probation. However, the SES is a criminal conviction for all purposes because the defendant has been found guilty and actually sentenced."
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