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Thread: How many members are now going to remove lights from their guns ?

  1. #1
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    How many members are now going to remove lights from their guns ?

    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27...-denver-police

    "If you put a flashlight on a gun, the gun becomes something other than a gun," Maloney said. "A firearm should be a firearm.


    Some top cops are saying to remove the flashlights as cops cannot distinguish the difference between activating a light or shooting the loudy-noise maker.

    Of course, they have accidents .... accidents

  2. #2
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Maloney is full of baloney.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Ligts on guns are to be able to verify the target is what you want to shoot at.

    Flashlights are for looking for stuff under the couch or the front seat, sometimes to see where you are going, or even who/what is in the car you are looking at.

    Have they stopped teaching cops flashlight drills?

    http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=66775

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZRNLfbnIJM

    https://www.floridacarry.org/educati...cal-flashlight

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    The switch for the light on my HD handgun is forward of the trigger guard, and my trigger finger has to be straight to turn the light on. I can identify the target, and the aim point is at the center of the beam, confirmed at the range.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    The switch for the light on my HD handgun is forward of the trigger guard, and my trigger finger has to be straight to turn the light on. I can identify the target, and the aim point is at the center of the beam, confirmed at the range.
    So was the cop in question's switch. Mrs. Murphy's offspring is a nasty fellow.

    But do you use that light to find your car keys after you have dropped them? Didn't think so.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Contrarian's Avatar
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    Cool gun/flashlight

    Always enjoyed the 'crossed wrists' hold of flashlight and handgun...

    Keep them separate.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Denver officials last month suspended Officer Brian Mudloff for 18 days without pay for careless handling of his firearm in connection with the March 16 discharge.
    Shoot a citizen without provocation and get 18 days off with pay. And then, in the end, get a commendation.

    I know, low blow.....

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    "If you put a flashlight on a gun, the gun becomes something other than a gun," Maloney said. "A firearm should be a firearm. We were concerned in New York that if you put a flashlight on a gun, the police would start using the gun as a flashlight. When you do that, you point a loaded firearm in an area not intended for shooting."

    So... Basically... "We're hiring people with little to no self control and that can't follow orders or safety training, so we can't give them flashlights on their weapons because no matter how much training we give them or orders to follow basic firearm safety guidelines, they'd inevitably break safety rules, orders, and training to use their weapon mounted lights improperly..."

    Seriously... If their officers don't have enough self control to not use a weapon mounted light improperly, the FIREARM is what should be taken off the light and taken away, not the light.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Shoot a citizen without provocation and get 18 days off with pay. And then, in the end, get a commendation.

    I know, low blow.....
    You may want to reread the quote you posted.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Manufacturers of the flashlights taser defend their use, saying accidental discharges are extremely rare and the lights tasers benefit officers who use them properly.
    Hmm...I suspect that the device is not the issue chief.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Hmm...I suspect that the device is not the issue chief.

    Exactly, from what I read in the article all the negligent discharges it mentioned could have been prevented if the officers kept their fingers off the trigger until they acquired a target.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Perhaps they should just train shooting with their eyes closed. Might help the NYPD.

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    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    At least they'd be honest when they claim they're color blind!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    At least they'd be honest when they claim they're color blind!
    Haha
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 12-08-2014 at 04:43 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    At least they'd be honest when they claim they're color blind!
    I'm bad ... but your worse (in a good way)

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    You may want to reread the quote you posted.
    Your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Your point?
    The quote you posted from the article says he was suspended WITHOUT pay. Your comment indicated that he was suspended WITH pay. I figured you misread the article or mistyped your post. Just wanted to point it out so you could have a chance at correcting it.

    I do however agree that the punishment was probably light and the officer probably should have been fired. Personally, I feel that (in general) any officer who is caught with their finger on the trigger before acquiring a target should be in danger of losing their job.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    ... Personally, I feel that (in general) any officer who is caught with their finger on the trigger before acquiring identifying a target lethal threat should be in danger of losing their job.
    Shooting and killing a innocent citizen confirms that he "acquired his target" even if he claims he unintentionally acquired his target. Will this cop avoid felony criminal penalties because he claims it was a accident?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Shooting and killing a innocent citizen confirms that he "acquired his target" even if he claims he unintentionally acquired his target. Will this cop avoid felony criminal penalties because he claims it was a accident?
    When I used the phrase "acquiring a target" it was meant as intentionally acquiring a target.

    The negligent discharge mentioned in the main part of the story did not result in any injuries.

    If a negligent discharge by an officer does cause an injury then (in my opinion) qualified immunity should not apply and the officer should be civilly liable in both his professional and personal capacities. The officer (in my opinion) should also be held to the same criminal standard as any other individual.

    However, that is my opinion. The short (and rather unfortunate) answer to your question is, yes he will most likely avoid the charges. In fact, there was a case a few years ago in my state where an "officer" shot an innocent man on purpose (on purpose meaning it wasn't a negligent discharge) and avoided charges despite the fact that the department's review board found the shooting to be unjustified. The victims name was John T. Williams.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    When I used the phrase "acquiring a target" it was meant as intentionally acquiring a target.

    The negligent discharge mentioned in the main part of the story did not result in any injuries.

    If a negligent discharge by an officer does cause an injury then (in my opinion) qualified immunity should not apply and the officer should be civilly liable in both his professional and personal capacities. The officer (in my opinion) should also be held to the same criminal standard as any other individual.

    However, that is my opinion. The short (and rather unfortunate) answer to your question is, yes he will most likely avoid the charges. In fact, there was a case a few years ago in my state where an "officer" shot an innocent man on purpose (on purpose meaning it wasn't a negligent discharge) and avoided charges despite the fact that the department's review board found the shooting to be unjustified. The victims name was John T. Williams.
    I get your point...how does a cop shoot a citizen unintentionally in the situation described...well, it is the NYPD. No, that cop shot that dude cuz he wanted to shoot that guy. now, it is up to lawyers to work out the details.

    There was nothing negligent about this incident...nothing. Did that cop plan to shoot that citizen, no. Yet he did shoot that citizen. Felony charges are warranted.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I get your point...how does a cop shoot a citizen unintentionally in the situation described...well, it is the NYPD. No, that cop shot that dude cuz he wanted to shoot that guy. now, it is up to lawyers to work out the details.

    There was nothing negligent about this incident...nothing. Did that cop plan to shoot that citizen, no. Yet he did shoot that citizen. Felony charges are warranted.
    I am not sure what case you are referring to. In the incident that was the main subject of the article nobody was shot. The article mentioned another incident where someone may have been shot but it is not known for sure.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I am not sure what case you are referring to. In the incident that was the main subject of the article nobody was shot. The article mentioned another incident where someone may have been shot but it is not known for sure.
    Ooops...sorry.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I have trained hundreds of officers the major factor in many of these IMHO is lack of practice.

    I wonder when the last time these officer actual drew and activated their weapon mounted lights.

    With many officers the only time they use their equipment is when they need it and during training.

    Why does this happen because officers are human as with most of the human race there are a few that really care their are more that kind of care, but the vast majority of people are just there.

    I would say it is about 3 percent that are on the top end 7 percent that do more then just the job and 90 percent that just get along.

    When we can solve this problem and only hire the top 3% every profession well be improved. In most professions the 90 percent ones get along just fine until something out of the norm happens.

    For those of who are perfect and never have made a mistake your employer should be very glad to have you.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 12-11-2014 at 09:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ooops...sorry.
    No worries.

    And as I said in the other post you quoted if it had resulted in injury than the officer should be held to the same civil and criminal standard as any other individual.

    Stated differently: badges and costumes shouldn't grant special rights.

    So it seems we (mostly) agree here.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 12-11-2014 at 03:35 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I have trained hundreds of officers the major factor in many of these IMHO is lack of practice............
    As an instructor, I would like your opinion on a theory I have about what may have caused some of these:

    The light switch in some of these incidents was a "button" located just under the trigger guard. If one's trigger finger is stretched along the slide and they depress said button with the middle finger everything is fine.

    However, if the trigger finger is within the guard and resting on the trigger that is where the problem occurres. It is difficult for many people with their fingers in that configuration to depress a button with their middle finger without their index finger moving slightly also. Add adrenaline to the mix and it is even worse.

    My theory is that the index finger was on the trigger, they used the middle finger to press the "button" and this caused their index finger to move also with just enough force to depress the trigger.

    Just speculation and a theory but I am interested in your opinion.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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