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Thread: Huff Post - Black Men Openly Carrying Guns in Holsters Will End Racial Profiling

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    Huff Post - Black Men Openly Carrying Guns in Holsters Will End Racial Profiling

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-go...b_6313176.html

    SNIP

    Contrary to conventional thinking on both sides of the political divide, more legal guns in the hands of law-abiding black men will defeat racism and end racial profiling in this country.

    Specifically, openly carrying a handgun in a hip holster will serve as a sign to everyone (law enforcement, the Wal-Mart employees frightened that a black man is holding a Wal-Mart air gun, the paranoid neighborhood watchman, an average citizen on the street) that black men in this country don't correlate to the various prejudices Americans have towards dark skin.

    . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Specifically, openly carrying a handgun in a hip holster will serve as a sign to everyone (law enforcement, the Wal-Mart employees frightened that a black man is holding a Wal-Mart air gun, the paranoid neighborhood watchman, an average citizen on the street) that black men in this country don't correlate to the various prejudices Americans have towards dark skin.

    . . .
    Peaceful exercise of rights is a good thing.

    But sadly a large number of black men are unable to legally exercise this right due to lifetime loss of rights for any felony conviction or domestic violence misdemeanor conviction. Why black men have such a higher rate of felony convictions than do white men (a black man is about 8x more likely to commit/be convicted of murder than is a white man) is a subject way off topic for this board.

    But to the extent that there is a problem with police using excessive force, I wonder to what extent it is actually racially based, vs socially economically based. Last year here in Utah some under-cover, out-of-uniform cops shot a young woman dead as she backed out of parking spot in her car after she didn't obey their orders to stop. They claim they identified themselves as cops, but they weren't dressed as cops. They claimed they were in fear for their lives from her "trying to run over" one officer. The shooting was ruled unjustified and one of the cops was brought up on charges, but the judge tossed the case at the preliminary hearing. The shooting brought to light a whole host of problems in that particular unit and department including gross mishandling of evidence that resulted in charges being dropped in dozens of cases. Everyone involved was white. Entirely coincidentally, I'm sure, I don't recall the case getting much national press nor attention from civil rights groups other than just locally.

    It seems a poor, white, low-level (former?) drug user who gets shot dead by cops while backing out of a parking stall is just a statistic, while large, violent, black men who assault cops and try to take their guns are cause celebre.

    I'm worried about excessive force from cops. I'm no less worried about how the media stokes the flames of racial discord in this nation.

    Charles

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    I noticed very early on that the sometimes prevalent us against them thug cop attitude, and the way that race plays into policing go way beyond the scope of openly carried guns. OCing brings it out, that's for sure, but it is neither a cause nor a solution for the problems as a whole.

    Speaking from regional experience which may or may not correlate to the tendencies of other regions, best case scenario, it will make a difference for the guy or gal OCing not getting stopped as he or she may have otherwise. More likely, they'll be more likely than whites to get stopped, as we've seen from cmdr iceman. At its worst, we have the situation in Detroit, where the DPD many years after OCing has become normalized, is arresting and charging innocent black men with concealed carry if they are OCing without a license.

    The author is not wrong, it'd certainly help if more people did on a big scale, but I don't think he quite understands the scope and dangers of what he's suggesting, especially to black men who don't very solidly prepare themselves and have dangerous cops to contend with. Nor do I think he understands the limits of what more black men OCing could do in the real world.
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-14-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Peaceful exercise of rights is a good thing.

    But sadly a large number of black men are unable to legally exercise this right due to lifetime loss of rights for any felony conviction or domestic violence misdemeanor conviction. Why black men have such a higher rate of felony convictions than do white men (a black man is about 8x more likely to commit/be convicted of murder than is a white man) is a subject way off topic for this board.

    But to the extent that there is a problem with police using excessive force, I wonder to what extent it is actually racially based, vs socially economically based. Last year here in Utah some under-cover, out-of-uniform cops shot a young woman dead as she backed out of parking spot in her car after she didn't obey their orders to stop. They claim they identified themselves as cops, but they weren't dressed as cops. They claimed they were in fear for their lives from her "trying to run over" one officer. The shooting was ruled unjustified and one of the cops was brought up on charges, but the judge tossed the case at the preliminary hearing. The shooting brought to light a whole host of problems in that particular unit and department including gross mishandling of evidence that resulted in charges being dropped in dozens of cases. Everyone involved was white. Entirely coincidentally, I'm sure, I don't recall the case getting much national press nor attention from civil rights groups other than just locally.

    It seems a poor, white, low-level (former?) drug user who gets shot dead by cops while backing out of a parking stall is just a statistic, while large, violent, black men who assault cops and try to take their guns are cause celebre.

    I'm worried about excessive force from cops. I'm no less worried about how the media stokes the flames of racial discord in this nation.

    Charles
    Here's the thing, Charles: it is, indeed, often difficult to distinguish individual bias (e.g. racism) from institutional bias (e.g. higher rates of criminal prosecution of the poor). But when, in a particular incident, you have clear evidence of individual misconduct (even if it's as "minor" as an initial lack of self-control, such as demonstrated by DW), it becomes much easier to assume the individual bias.

    Perhaps this is because folks would prefer to blame a "bad apple" than accept there is a need for serious institutional reform. Or, perhaps because individual racism explains both the initial encounter and its ultimate resolution.

    To me it seems clear that, if there is such strong doubt about the motivations of individual officers, the solution is for them to collectively do their best police each other and ensure squeaky-clean behavior. After all, it doesn't really matter what motivates the officer if he behaves professionally, morally, and within the law.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Another liberal who expects every cop, everywhere, to do the right thing every time they encounter a OCer. Sadly this is not reality.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I would argue that OC would be quite effective for ANYONE OF ANY RACE in the 4th Circuit via United States v. Black since it's just one extra safeguard between LAC and LEO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Here's the thing, Charles: it is, indeed, often difficult to distinguish individual bias (e.g. racism) from institutional bias (e.g. higher rates of criminal prosecution of the poor).
    Or, are there higher rates of prosecution among the poor (or other demographics) because of higher rates of criminal offenses among such groups?

    Put another way, is it possible that poverty might be a common result of not following the rules of society (both criminal and merely socially accepted), rather than poverty causing (or predicting) people not to follow the rules of society?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    But when, in a particular incident, you have clear evidence of individual misconduct (even if it's as "minor" as an initial lack of self-control, such as demonstrated by DW), it becomes much easier to assume the individual bias.
    I'm not aware of Officer Wilson exhibiting any lack of self control nor anything else that would indicate any "individual bias" on his part. No doubt he had some tactical errors. Beyond that?


    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Perhaps this is because folks would prefer to blame a "bad apple" than accept there is a need for serious institutional reform.
    Or perhaps some folks like to claim institutional racism in the absence of any evidence of actual racism.

    Show me real racism and I'll join you in objecting and demanding accountability and change. Claim "institutional racism" and I'll need to see real proof. Because at this point, the most obvious "institutional racism" takes the form of affirmative action, racial set-assides in federal contracting, racial tests for practicing American Indian religions that get legal exemptions for Peyote use, and other such laws and policies that place white, asian, and jewish men at disadvantage for employment, promotion, acceptance to college, and scholarships compared to every other demographic out there.

    But, as I wrote above, this all seems way off topic on this thread.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 12-20-2014 at 02:43 AM.

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    I suspect that if more black men carried OC -- yet didn't loose their aggressive 'tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse) -- more black men would get shot.

    So all in all, and contrary to the Huffington Post "analysis," the end result -- getting shot -- seems kind of counter-productive to me, yes?

    It's amazing that one tiny little hole in someone -- no matter how loud, big & bad they are -- can change everything. Instantly.

    Just like Colt Manufacturing used to say...something about guns making people equal.

    As for being polite because one is armed, I don't think so: You're either that way to begin with or not -- carrying a gun changes nothing re: one's personality.

    Like a bum wearing a $1K suit, driving a $100K car or living in a $1M house -- there's still a "bum inside" (sorry Intel).
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-20-2014 at 02:53 AM.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    I suspect that if more black men carried OC -- yet didn't loose their aggressive 'tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse) -- more black men would get shot.
    Right, because A: having an aggressive 'tude is a racial (rather than cultural) feature, and B: there aren't loads of white dudes impressed by "urban culture" who act like aggressive louts.

    Frankly, sir, this is a disgusting post. Incidentally, Russian culture is every bit as aggressive, loutish, and uncivilized as is urban culture, and as far a I can tell you're still as much a Russian as an American.
    Last edited by marshaul; 12-20-2014 at 07:36 AM.

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    "Frankly, sir, this is a disgusting post. Incidentally, Russian culture is every bit as aggressive, loutish, and uncivilized as is urban culture, and as far a I can tell you're still as much a Russian as an American." -- Il Maresciallo


    So, we both are making "disgusting" posts, but yours is about Russians and mine is about blacks, even though you agree they are "loutish" also (using your "urban culture" euphemism)? Give me the rest of the day to get my mind around that kind of thinking as I attempt to connect the dots...

    Presently, however, I have to ask: What is your negative fascination with Russians, as you've called me that before? If anything I have White Russian in me, not Red...so I'm more reactionary (Czarist) than Communist (Bolshevik). But maybe you and I are really related somehow, seeing as we have similar views? Could we be long-lost bros (brahs in Hawaii) or something? Separated at birth perhaps? ;-)

    But yes, I AM an American, a REAL one, not a poser that passes for one nowadays. Thank you so much for noticing...

    I didn't know Russians (in general) were "loutish" people, but even if they were "loutish," we don't have a huge population of Russians here all over America to be concerned about, do we. And I haven't seen any Russian "protestors" out in the streets burning & looting -- ever. And "loutish" doesn't AT ALL imply violent behavior, does it. But we DO have a huge population of blacks, don't we. And yes, they are aggressive (not loutish) AND violent -- where have you been all your life? Have you been in prison with them? Or in combat with them? Did you ever live on the street and experience that reality? Or ever lived in the Greater Houston Texas Metroplex? Does the burning & looting we've seen recently (and in the past with more to come in the future) indicate violent behavior? And it happens almost always in THEIR neighborhoods. What OTHER ethnic group in America tends to react that way to ANY provocation, real OR imagined?

    Really, what is YOUR "expertise" in the matter? None.

    Finding facts "disgusting" seems like some sort of mental disorder...or maybe it's just your silly sombrero being too tight out there in the hot sun of the Sierra Madre?

    So because you think I'm Russian I'm "loutish" also (besides disgusting)? Is that name-calling, since you aren't meaning that as a compliment, not only insulting me (not really, I don't care) but a whole NATION of people? So if I am a Russian (or of Russian heritage) maybe THAT's why I understand blacks better than most? Because we're both "loutish" groups of peoples? In short then, you mean it takes one to know one?

    Hmmmm...maybe you're on to something there. I know I understand ISIS pretty well (that's because I'm a Christian Fundamentalist, but that's another topic).

    Regardless, as long as people like you make excuses for persistent, negative and violent "cultural" behavior of a particular group, then you give them a walk for said behavior and no one will ever expect -- no, DEMAND -- them to take personal responsibility for their misbehavior (to put it mildly) and go on blaming everyone else EXCEPT themselves (and THAT is a "cultural" thing, too). And they thank you for it, so they can continue to stay in the dark/under the radar. Just like all the news media that aid in that effort by not posting pictures of the "suspects" involved in the latest restaurant violence, convenience store armed robbery, car-jacking, home invasion, or street mugging. Afraid even to mention the race of the "suspects" (unless they're white). Or the Police in Ferguson, MO, caving in to the "protestors" in fear of them. And police in other towns where "protests" happened doing the same, in fear of a group of loudmouth bullies, DARING anyone to do anything about it. I wonder why that is.

    Mere coincidence? Don't think so.

    But I won't "debate" this particular point further with you, being as clueless and PC as you are, or simply choosing to be in denial. You also think that everyone is the same and every ethnic group has the same traits/behaviors/characteristics. They don't. Blacks will TELL you whites are easy targets, easy to bully/intimidate, because whites are afraid of blacks. Why would that be if there is nothing to be afraid of?

    As for the original issue, however, what I was hinting at was this: If one is OCing everyone can see the gun (of course) and so any aggressive behavior of that OCing individual toward others would cause others to fear he/she would USE that gun. So if "words" were spoken, and things escalated (as they do before physical violence takes place), the "potential victim" (also armed) may very well try to act preemptively and shoot first, before the aggressor got physical or before HE could shoot. Preemptive self-defense IS still self-defense. One doesn't HAVE to wait to be struck first, or shot at first. No physical injury of the "victim" needs to happen BEFORE one can self-defend. Only to be in fear of severe bodily harm or for their life, period. So I don't think an aggressive/confrontational/short-temper person should be carrying a gun AT ALL, let alone OCing -- it's not going to work for them. So don't tell me one's psychological makeup is irrelevant when it comes to carrying a firearm. If it is, then there's no need for background checks looking for mental or domestic violence issues, is there. Or a long rap sheet of same.

    So that's how OCing by people with "aggressive 'tudes" would be dangerous -- for THEM.

    And as I mentioned, just because someone is carrying (CC or OC) doesn't mean any aggressive personality/short temper they have disappears...it's right there under the surface.

    Would they suddenly become polite once someone with a no-nonsense demeanor draws and points a gun at them ready to shoot with the next heartbeat? Definitely, they sure would, partly because most of the time, they're just ACTING tough (another "cultural" thing), to bully/intimidate so it SEEMS very real to the "victim" -- they'd change their tune in a split second and it's comical when that happens! If they're so polite THEN, why weren't they polite earlier? Why did it have to escalate to a gun being drawn by the person they were attempting to bully/intimidate?

    One more thing: Didn't you earlier say something about people feeling uncomfortable around strangers, because they didn't know them, or what they might/might not do (whether armed or not). And the same for being around ARMED strangers (that would be OCers, since one wouldn't know a stranger was armed if he/she was CCing) for the same reason -- not knowing the person so not knowing his/her intentions? You must be meaning the general UNarmed public out there being "uncomfortable," since we who are armed aren't AT ALL uncomfortable, as we are at least on an equal footing with armed strangers, whatever their intentions. So maybe the SOLUTION for those other "uncomfortable" people is to be armed also. You know, to use a liberal cliché, they should "empower" themselves. Just a thought...

    But really, who here is EVER worried or EVER alarmed when they see another OCer out there (as rare as that is)? NEVER, yes? Is that ONLY because we ALSO carry?

    I know I'm not worried or alarmed...mainly because I'm armed, too (and on top of that I DO have 2 aces up my sleeve). So I can't relate to feeling "uncomfortable" around strangers, be they armed or not. Ever.

    ...but I'll admit that I DO feel "uncomfortable" when I see strangers that LOOK like they're trouble (yes, "profiling" and there ain't nothing wrong with that at all, contrary to ignorant but popular liberal/public belief), and so I go on silent alert (i.e., Jeff Cooper's Situational Awareness Codes go up a color level or 2).

    But don't we all, as it's the prudent thing to do -- just in case...


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    Grapeshot: If you wish, I will go back and delete ("withdraw") both my posts above. Just let me know.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-20-2014 at 04:21 PM.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    I suspect that if more black men carried OC -- yet didn't loose their aggressive 'tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse) -- more black men would get shot.

    So all in all, and contrary to the Huffington Post "analysis," the end result -- getting shot -- seems kind of counter-productive to me, yes?

    It's amazing that one tiny little hole in someone -- no matter how loud, big & bad they are -- can change everything. Instantly.

    Just like Colt Manufacturing used to say...something about guns making people equal.

    As for being polite because one is armed, I don't think so: You're either that way to begin with or not -- carrying a gun changes nothing re: one's personality.

    Like a bum wearing a $1K suit, driving a $100K car or living in a $1M house -- there's still a "bum inside" (sorry Intel).
    I would like to point out that most minorities are:

    a) law-abiding
    b) swell people once you get to know them
    c) not even remotely resembling: "... aggressive '[atti]tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse)"
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-12-2015 at 10:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    I would like to point out that most minorities are:

    a) law-abiding
    b) swell people once you get to know them
    c) not even remotely resembling "... aggressive '[atti]tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse)"
    +1 I wager most people (minority or not) are swell people even if we don't get to know them......
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    +1 I wager most people (minority or not) are swell people even if we don't get to know them......
    I agree...including most people who are cops, elected government officials, and others who work for government.

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    If you wish, I will go back and delete ("withdraw") both my posts above. Just let me know.
    I hear crickets chirping.

    Maybe you should go back and read what you said and delete them yourself.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I agree...including most people who are cops, elected government officials, and others who work for government.

    Charles
    Most of them are not working of money stolen from others.

    The public employees wearing red coats in the 18th century and the public officials enforcing the law under the British government fell into your definition too.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 02-13-2015 at 08:20 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    I suspect that if more black men carried OC -- yet didn't loose their aggressive 'tude and tendency to confront/verbally assault and otherwise bully people (let alone doing worse) -- more black men would get shot.
    emphasis added

    No deletion of post or reprimand for those remarks?

    Amazing.
    "Nullification is the rightful remedy" Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    emphasis added

    No deletion of post or reprimand for those remarks?

    Amazing.
    Did you report it?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Did you report it?
    Don't know how and it would fall on deaf ears anyway.
    "Nullification is the rightful remedy" Thomas Jefferson
    http://tracking.tenthamendmentcenter...-preservation/

    "Constitutional Carry is not an oxymoron"
    A Sovereign

    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    Don't know how and it would fall on deaf ears anyway.
    Little triangle on his post on the bottom left.

    I rarely use the tattle button, but if you want to get the mods attention that is how to do it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Little triangle on his post on the bottom left.

    I rarely use the tattle button, but if you want to get the mods attention that is how to do it.
    Thanks, but I'm not into the tattle thing either
    "Nullification is the rightful remedy" Thomas Jefferson
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    Sorry to be so late to the party. Don't know where some people get the idea that the Adminstration/moderators of this forum are all seeing and that we don't have lives outside of the forum.

    That being said, those that do not report a problem become part of the problem. Tattling or snitching are IMO such juvenile excuses. We are encouraged to keep OCDO strong and focused - that is the work of many, not one or two of us.

    At this point, I think I will first give the users who have 2nd thoughts about their posts time to edit/modify them and stay on-topic in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    emphasis added

    No deletion of post or reprimand for those remarks?

    Amazing.
    I told him it was disgusting, to which he asserted that I must have "some sort of mental disorder", at which point the thread went quiet.

    The joke's on him IMHO. Nobody can force him to behave like a decent human being in public.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Sorry to be so late to the party. Don't know where some people get the idea that the Adminstration/moderators of this forum are all seeing and that we don't have lives outside of the forum.

    That being said, those that do not report a problem become part of the problem. Tattling or snitching are IMO such juvenile excuses. We are encouraged to keep OCDO strong and focused - that is the work of many, not one or two of us.

    At this point, I think I will first give the users who have 2nd thoughts about their posts time to edit/modify them and stay on-topic in the process.

    I don't personally care what color your hair, skin or eyes are. If you support the RKBA responsibly, you are my brother. Conversly, the enemy of my brother is my enemy.
    I'd rather see the members speak out against and too and try to do that instead of relying on someone else.

    You do know I have reported a few times and they do tend to be when people are extreme bigots.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member
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    The fact that Black men and women who were to open carry would make a statement like no other. It would state don't come to me and harass me because I am a law abiding citizen and if law enforcement wants to harass them for exercising their God given right to bear arms then that is a civil rights issue and the government needs to correct that. On the flip side of that there are too many shoot first ask questions later cops. They shoot someone that is law abiding and they get a slap on the wrist even if they did identify themselves as cops in plain clothing I wouldn't stop unless I knew the cop or if I was in well lit area for my protection and for video purposes if I am stopped I start the recorder even if it is a license/ DWI/ vehicle inspection stop. I am in no way against law enforcement but at the same time I only trust them if I have my eyes on them and even then it's not even full trust. I know there are good cops but there are bad ones as well. I can tell you that yes the stats are stacked against Black Americans and it's too bad because I have a lot I mean a lot of friends that are Black and they are really good friends and I trust them 100%. Law enforcement harass innocent people for no reason and Blacks are targeted more than any other race because of statistical reasons. If Black Americans were treated truly as equals and were given real equal chances and taken out of the " hood " and given a fare shake, given a chance to prove their trust then and only then would the racial divide be broken and with the law abiders open carrying that would I agree close the racial divide even more

  25. #25
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    Thanks, but I'm not into the tattle thing either
    Tattling =/= holding someone accountable.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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