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Thread: Santa Fe OC, the wrong way...

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Santa Fe OC, the wrong way...

    I found this on YouTube and wanted to see what our OC brethren in the Land of Enchantment thought of this fellow, presumably from South Carolina, and how he went about his OC encounter with SFPD.

    http://youtu.be/8BwQQSo9YX4

    In my opinion, you don't walk up on a traffic stop while OC'ing and make it known you're not just out minding your business. The whole point, or so I thought, is to stay as inconspicuous as possible while still exercising your right to bear. Am I wrong?


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    Say NO to unlawful search and seizures

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    I found this on YouTube and wanted to see what our OC brethren in the Land of Enchantment thought of this fellow, presumably from South Carolina, and how he went about his OC encounter with SFPD.

    http://youtu.be/8BwQQSo9YX4

    In my opinion, you don't walk up on a traffic stop while OC'ing and make it known you're not just out minding your business. The whole point, or so I thought, is to stay as inconspicuous as possible while still exercising your right to bear. Am I wrong?


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    We do not live in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

    The guy is a Patriot for standing his ground and not being a sheeple!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    I found this on YouTube and wanted to see what our OC brethren in the Land of Enchantment thought of this fellow, presumably from South Carolina, and how he went about his OC encounter with SFPD.

    http://youtu.be/8BwQQSo9YX4

    In my opinion, you don't walk up on a traffic stop while OC'ing and make it known you're not just out minding your business. The whole point, or so I thought, is to stay as inconspicuous as possible while still exercising your right to bear. Am I wrong?


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    Absolutely nothing wrong with what the man did. He was not interfering with the police officer and not breaking any laws.

    No the point is not to be inconspicuous, but rather to normalize the carrying of handguns....to educate as well. Rather hard to inconspicuously open carry.

    There is considerable error with some of the comments on the link - some unnecessary vulgarity too.

    Much wrong with what the officers did; however, care needs to exercised in that OCDO is not and will not be another CopWatch.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-18-2014 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Absolutely nothing wrong with what the man did. He was not interfering with the police officer and not breaking any laws.

    No the point is not to be inconspicuous, but rather to normalize the carrying of handguns....to educate as well. Rather hard to inconspicuously open carry.

    There is considerable error with some of the comments on the link - some unnecessary vulgarity too.

    Much wrong with what the officers did; however, care needs to exercised in that OCDO is not and will not be another CopWatch.
    Let me clarify my first post a little. When I implied "inconspicuous" I simply meant carrying yourself in a manner that wouldn't draw unnecessary attention. To act no differently than if you were unarmed. I didn't mean to hide the weapon or lurk in the shadows.

    Secondly, I have no problems with his actions when the officer stepped out of his car, and with the second officer's approach, either. My issue comes within the first minute of the video. It appears to the viewer that this guy went out of his way to draw attention to himself, thus resulting in the stop later on.

    If all OCers carries ourselves this way, by approaching law enforcement first, wouldn't you think it would become more and more difficult to educate them and the public on the benefits of open carry? The cops already had it in their heads from the get go that this guy was up to something, regardless of the man's stated intentions he was just minding his own.

    My point is this: if open carry is to be accepted by everyone, then we need to paint the picture of a polite, respectful society of responsible gun owners. I think, and it's just my opinion, that by deliberately drawing attention to yourself in a way that this guy did, regardless of if he was breaking the law or not, it sends the message to the public, and especially the police that we're a bunch of lawless bandits and this is the old west.

    It's one thing, I think, to be stopped and harassed by LE when you're walking the dog and OC'ing, or pumping gas. It's another to present yourself to the cops like he did and not expect them to react like they did.

    Also, I never intended this thread to turn into CopWatch. I just found the video to send the wrong message about standing up for your rights.


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    Let me clarify my first post a little. When I implied "inconspicuous" I simply meant carrying yourself in a manner that wouldn't draw unnecessary attention. To act no differently than if you were unarmed. I didn't mean to hide the weapon or lurk in the shadows.

    Secondly, I have no problems with his actions when the officer stepped out of his car, and with the second officer's approach, either. My issue comes within the first minute of the video. It appears to the viewer that this guy went out of his way to draw attention to himself, thus resulting in the stop later on.

    If all OCers carries ourselves this way, by approaching law enforcement first, wouldn't you think it would become more and more difficult to educate them and the public on the benefits of open carry? The cops already had it in their heads from the get go that this guy was up to something, regardless of the man's stated intentions he was just minding his own.

    My point is this: if open carry is to be accepted by everyone, then we need to paint the picture of a polite, respectful society of responsible gun owners. I think, and it's just my opinion, that by deliberately drawing attention to yourself in a way that this guy did, regardless of if he was breaking the law or not, it sends the message to the public, and especially the police that we're a bunch of lawless bandits and this is the old west.

    It's one thing, I think, to be stopped and harassed by LE when you're walking the dog and OC'ing, or pumping gas. It's another to present yourself to the cops like he did and not expect them to react like they did.

    Also, I never intended this thread to turn into CopWatch. I just found the video to send the wrong message about standing up for your rights.


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    Generally agree for the most part.

    Again though. By definition OC must be visible and recognizable - that makes it a necessity.

    Lawless bandits don't OC and LEOs know that + the "wild west" is primarily a Hollywood myth.

    If LEA allow their officers to be so egregious, my grand kids college education is insured. I expect officers to react (in this case not at all) in accordance with the law.

    I'm very much in agreement with the man's conduct/response.

    I apologize if I appear to be picking nits with you - that is really not my intention
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Santa Fe OC, the wrong way...

    I don't think you're nit picking or anything of the sort. I guess the video just rubbed me the wrong way at the beginning. I just don't personally believe in picking a fight with LE just to prove a point.


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    Last edited by Vader33; 12-18-2014 at 05:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    I don't think you're nit picking or anything of the sort. I guess the video just rubbed me the wrong way at the beginning. I just don't personally believe in picking a fight with LE just to prove a point.


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    I do it ALL THE TIME. Every time they ask for ID, I jump down their throats. And I am not nice about it either. I make it very unpleasant for them so that, if they want their days to be uneventful, they stop the practice entirely for law abiding citizens; if not then they can expect to have unpleasant days when they encounter me.

    If a cop asked everyone they meet in a day for ID when they have no reason to, if everyone refused but was very nice to them, then their behavior would not stop; however, if everyone was rude and mean to them they would stop the practice. How I see the issue - and a solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    I don't think you're nit picking or anything of the sort. I guess the video just rubbed me the wrong way at the beginning. I just don't personally believe in picking a fight with LE just to prove a point.

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    I don't pick fights with LEOs, but I also don't cross the street to avoid them either.

    It's like a game of cards - gotta know when to hold them and when to fold 'em....play your cards right.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I don't pick fights with LEOs, but I also don't cross the street to avoid them either.

    It's like a game of cards - gotta know when to hold them and when to fold 'em....play your cards right.
    And now all I can think about is that stupid Geico commercial with Kenny Rogers. Thanks.

    But in all seriousness, I understand exactly what you're saying. I, however, practice the "don't give them a reason to bug you in the first place" kind of thing. It's worked out pretty well so far. And yes, I've been stopped, and omygawd yes I've shown my ID. Guess what happened...nothing. No helicopters, no men in black suits, nobody knocking on my door asking me if I know Jesus Christ either.

    But that's just me.


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ain't this a fun place?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Ain't this a fun place?
    You know, I honestly can't say I've found a better online resource for anything related to OC than here. Even if the inmates get to run the asylum...


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    Wasn't that video posted here back in the day?

    The cop initiates the encounter, not the citizen.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Santa Fe OC, the wrong way...

    I can't tell you if it was posted earlier or not. I haven't been posting here in a while.

    Do you think the guy walking up on the stop, getting the attention of the officer, had nothing at all to do with the cop stopping him a few minutes later? I think that's exactly why the cop stopped him. It would've been different had the guy just been walking by and the cop looked over, but no, the guy brought this on himself by first interfering with the stop.

    I do agree with how he handled them, I just don't agree with how he first made himself aware.


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    Last edited by Vader33; 12-18-2014 at 08:16 AM.

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    Of course, the cop chose to engage where he should not have. At the 1:11 mark the citizens walks away, the remaining ~8 minutes is on the cop. He should have just kept on kepting on.

    Sometimes it is not what we see on these types of videos but what we want to see.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Sometimes it is not what we see on these types of videos but what we want to see.
    Exactly, where in this case I saw the altercation begin with the traffic stop, you saw it begin after a minute into the video.


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    Vader -

    Welcome (maybe a bit belatedly) to OCDO.

    The YouTube is from 2010. It's been discussed sevveral times, and probably will be discussed several more times as new-to-gun-rights folks discover some of what they are up against.

    I'm glad to see you were not happy with what you saw. Neither side was choosing "the most elegant" approach. Kicking that thought around and figuring out how the same rsult (videotaping) could be achieved without giving up rights and not overtly provoking the cops* is a good goal.

    stay safe.

    * - some cops feel you are provoking them if you say "Good morning".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBb...=youtube_gdata - NSFW language.
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    Regular Member Vader33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Vader -

    Welcome (maybe a bit belatedly) to OCDO.

    The YouTube is from 2010. It's been discussed sevveral times, and probably will be discussed several more times as new-to-gun-rights folks discover some of what they are up against.

    I'm glad to see you were not happy with what you saw. Neither side was choosing "the most elegant" approach. Kicking that thought around and figuring out how the same rsult (videotaping) could be achieved without giving up rights and not overtly provoking the cops* is a good goal.

    stay safe.

    * - some cops feel you are provoking them if you say "Good morning".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBb...=youtube_gdata - NSFW language.
    + Eleventy Billion


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Absolutely nothing wrong with what the man did. He was not interfering with the police officer
    I remember the video and the past discussions.

    I will disagree and say I think the guy was a moron for what he did in the beginning and that it was indeed wrong to initiate contact when it was not his business or with any reason other than to be in the cop's face while OC'ing. In my opinion he also certainly did interfere with the cop as he was carrying out his stop- he acted as a distraction and that is not good. I have seen first-hand people be arrested for interfering with the police. He could very well have been and then he would have had to deal with it, right or wrong.

    I will also say that if I were the person who was stopped I'd be rather irritated if some idiot with a gun came up and started videotaping the cops. I want the cop to be focused on what he's doing and not with anything else.

    This is not the way to go about OC'ing. The way to do it better is to go about your own business- AS NORMAL. Which does not usually mean seeking out the cops "to hold them accountable." Pure rubbish if you ask me.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader33 View Post
    And now all I can think about is that stupid Geico commercial with Kenny Rogers. Thanks.

    But in all seriousness, I understand exactly what you're saying. I, however, practice the "don't give them a reason to bug you in the first place" kind of thing. It's worked out pretty well so far. And yes, I've been stopped, and omygawd yes I've shown my ID. Guess what happened...nothing. No helicopters, no men in black suits, nobody knocking on my door asking me if I know Jesus Christ either.

    But that's just me.


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    This is not a criticism. It is an attempt to enlighten whomever reads this.

    Why did they ask for your ID? Did they have probable cause or a warrant? Do you realize that if they did not, you voluntarily gave up your IV Amendment Rights?

    IV Amendment:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    The guy did nothing wrong in the video. He was called by his girlfriend to the scene, who was the driver that was pulled over. So he says.

    Was coming up from behind the officer wise during his stop? HELL NO.

    The cop probably had to go change his underwear after realizing he could have been taken out if the guy had that intent. In my opinion, once he got over his fears, he got mad and wanted to retaliate for his bruised ego.

    As I have said before, I have gone to jail for not relinquishing my IV Amendment Rights. Charges dropped. Arrest expunged. I should have sued him in his private capacity and not as an officer abusing his power. Welcome to post 9/11.

    The question remains. What are you willing to do to keep your God given Rights? How uncomfortable are you willing to get? Sitting behind a keyboard is easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    I remember the video and the past discussions.

    I will disagree and say I think the guy was a moron for what he did in the beginning and that it was indeed wrong to initiate contact when it was not his business or with any reason other than to be in the cop's face while OC'ing. In my opinion he also certainly did interfere with the cop as he was carrying out his stop- he acted as a distraction and that is not good. I have seen first-hand people be arrested for interfering with the police. He could very well have been and then he would have had to deal with it, right or wrong.

    I will also say that if I were the person who was stopped I'd be rather irritated if some idiot with a gun came up and started videotaping the cops. I want the cop to be focused on what he's doing and not with anything else.

    This is not the way to go about OC'ing. The way to do it better is to go about your own business- AS NORMAL. Which does not usually mean seeking out the cops "to hold them accountable." Pure rubbish if you ask me.
    Your opinion is duly noted.

    The man did not initiate any contact. He was not interferring. He was well away from the officer, he had a vested interest in recording, although he did not need one. The courts have routinely held that recording a LEO is not a violation of the law. That he was not found guilty of any crime speaks volumes. That, sir is not an opinion....those are the FACTS.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Your opinion is duly noted.

    The man did not initiate any contact. He was not interferring. He was well away from the officer, he had a vested interest in recording, although he did not need one. The courts have routinely held that recording a LEO is not a violation of the law. That he was not found guilty of any crime speaks volumes. That, sir is not an opinion....those are the FACTS.
    I'm trying to discuss this in good faith. There's no need for the confrontational tone.

    He certainly did initiate contact. He came pretty darned close- too close for the officer's comfort. That's contact in my opinion. He had to be asked to move away.

    He had no legitimate vested interest in taking video, other than being a PITA. Need or not- it wasn't his business.

    If he had been arrested for interfering, there might have indeed been a good chance of his being convicted of a crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    I'm trying to discuss this in good faith. There's no need for the confrontational tone.

    He certainly did initiate contact. He came pretty darned close- too close for the officer's comfort. That's contact in my opinion. He had to be asked to move away.

    He had no legitimate vested interest in taking video, other than being a PITA. Need or not- it wasn't his business.

    If he had been arrested for interfering, there might have indeed been a good chance of his being convicted of a crime.
    Please get the facts of the video straight. The guy was called by his girlfriend who was getting pulled over. He was filming his girlfriends interaction with the cop.

    Make sense now why he was there?

    Should he have approached the cop from behind? Not advisable, but not illegal and since he didn't get arrested or charged, I would conclude the approach was legal.

    He bruised the cop's ego and that is why the cop pursued the encounter. In my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    Please get the facts of the video straight. The guy was called by his girlfriend who was getting pulled over. He was filming his girlfriends interaction with the cop.

    Make sense now why he was there?
    I hadn't recalled that it was his GF- appreciate the clarification. I agree now that he had an interest.

    That being said- he could have remained across the street and zoomed the video. No need to actually approach.


    since he didn't get arrested or charged, I would conclude the approach was legal.
    He wasn't arrested because the cop chose not to arrest him. IMO he very well could have according to the interference statute in this state. And if the guy had been arrested, as I said above he would then have had to deal with it- which would have cost him time and money and the risk of being convicted. IMO it was not worth the risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    I'm trying to discuss this in good faith. There's no need for the confrontational tone.

    He certainly did initiate contact. He came pretty darned close- too close for the officer's comfort. That's contact in my opinion. He had to be asked to move away.

    He had no legitimate vested interest in taking video, other than being a PITA. Need or not- it wasn't his business.

    If he had been arrested for interfering, there might have indeed been a good chance of his being convicted of a crime.
    Confrontational tone? Really? You can hear my voice? Nope, just checked and my microphone is turned off.
    You might want to take a glance at my profile to see what I do and why before you suggest that I am not posting/operating in good faith.

    I suspect you think I am being confrontational because I disagree with your assessment and conclusions.
    1. SCOTUS has ruled that recording a LEO in public is legal and not interfering with the officer. https://www.aclu.org/kyr-photo
    2. As to vested interest - his girl friend called him on his cell phone requesting assistance. That adds vested interest to what he already has a right to do.
    3. Had he been arrested, there is an extremely good probability of a positive Ka-Ching in his life.


    How far away do you think he needs to be? Note he was across the street and did not approach the officer, which he could have done to ask a question, but likely would have had to step back if the officer asked him to wait. Does he need to be 50' away...100'? Answer: none of the prior.

    BTW - I have personal experience with such. I was ready to go into a local Food Lion one night when the night mgr/stock boy told me I could not carry there. I waited outside while he called the police instead of getting the written rule he said he was getting to show me. Five cars and 6 officers showed up and tried to intimidate me. Told me to stop recording them and no pictures allowed. After getting what I needed, I asked if I was free to go - no response. I said, "Well then have a good night." and walked off and into a nearby restaurant. Within minutes a Sgt and and officer came in and said they wanted to talk to me. As I was on the phone with a private phone call and declined. They sat down. I got up and called a friend....bring a camera, I need a witness too. Meanwhile I refused to talk to the police and just sat there drinking my coffee...waiting.

    My friend showed up and immediately started taking HD pictures outside before he came into the restaurant. We talked for a bit and checked outside - the officers were gone. The power of recordings, two cameras, and a friend willing to come to my assistance.

    The next day the manager of Food Lion gave me his personal cell # and a signed permission slip/permit to carry in that Food Lion. The night mgr. was caused to move on to other employment. The Sgt. involved was given desk duty and shortly thereafter resigned to go to a much smaller dept. elsewhere. Those are also facts, not opinion.

    Now I have added a dash cam to my tools. Not because I expect trouble, but because I wish to avoid it AND will not give up my RKBA (particularly OC) to placate someone else's opinion that I am a PITA.

    That,sir, is discussing in good faith. You are entitled to your opinion, but do not try to sell such to us here as truth, reality, or the final word. We've been down that road before. Hope you learn to look beyond your knee jerk emotions and are able to grow taller from the effort.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Confrontational tone? Really? You can hear my voice? Nope, just checked and my microphone is turned off.
    You might want to take a glance at my profile to see what I do and why before you suggest that I am not posting/operating in good faith.

    I suspect you think I am being confrontational because I disagree with your assessment and conclusions.

    That,sir, is discussing in good faith. You are entitled to your opinion, but do not try to sell such to us here as truth, reality, or the final word. We've been down that road before. Hope you learn to look beyond your knee jerk emotions and are able to grow taller from the effort.
    I never said you weren't operating in good faith.

    I took your tone as confrontational because of the words you stressed, and your use of the word sir. I have no issue with you disagreeing with me.

    As far as your last statement, I will say there is no need to be like that. I was only trying to take part in a discussion- that I now regret. Would you be happy with me leaving the forum?

    According to the wording of the interference statute, that cop could have arrested the guy. And then he would have had trouble to deal with- and there would have been no "ka-ching" to him at all.

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