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Glad I live in a State that gets and F Rating!!

Renegadez

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
182
Location
Lees Summit
That's nice ... but all gun laws are bad. Think about it...

While i agree with part of this statement this mess was not created overnight and will not be fixed overnight. I would just throw a huge thank You out to all those who have worked before me and to those who come after us to help preserve and further our firearms rights. All those like utbagpiper who have given time money and energy for this cause deserve a hardy THANKSSSSS not just a that's nice!
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
That's nice ... but all gun laws are bad. Think about it...

Actually, I can think of few gun laws that are very good.

Utah's RKBA constitutional provision (Article 1, Section 6, Utah State Constitution) is a very strong, very clear protection of RKBA that includes specific provisions for the "individual right to keep and bear arms". While not perfect, this portion of our constitution is a pretty darn good gun law and it exists in its current form thanks to being strengthened sometime in the 80s, I believe.

I'm kind of fond of that federal "gun law" that makes it very difficult for anyone to successfully sue gun manufacturers for the criminal (mis)use of their products that worked properly.

Utah has a constitutional provision that requires a supermajority threshold in order for any citizen initiative dealing with hunting to become law. Want to know how many battles we've had to fight here with bleeding heart or out-of-State interests trying to use money and slick ads to outlaw proper wildlife management? Hint: It is a number less than 1. This is not strictly a "gun law" but certainly affects how we use our guns (and bows, and traps).

We have some laws providing a presumption of reasonableness and consequent protections from criminal and civil actions if someone uses deadly force against a home invader. This seems like a pretty good "gun law" to me.

We have a provision making clear that OCing a properly holstered firearm is not, of itself, a violation of our Disorderly Conduct statute. We have a law preventing employers from taking any negative employment action against employees who lawfully have a firearm in their car, even if the car is parked in the company parking lot. Utah has copied Montana in passing a law excluding locally manufactured and sold firearms (no InterState commerce) from federal regulation. We're awaiting the court decisions dealing with Montana's law to see how this plays out. These all seem like not bad laws to me.

We have some laws protecting shooting ranges from noise, nuisance, or other complaints or local ordinances that would try to shut down existing ranges simply because someone decides to build a new neighborhood within hearing distance.

We have a host of laws dealing with the taking of game. While some may chafe at any legal limits on their conduct, most sane men recognize that some order is needed and in total, hunting laws here have helped provide opportunities to hunt to far more people than if we just left everyone free to do whatever they wanted.

I believe we have a law limiting how police departments handle firearms used as evidence, once the case is concluded, but I'd have to go double check that. I believe we have a proposed bill coming up that would protect a few thousand dollars of firearms against bankruptcy proceedings. There seems to be some merit in these kinds of laws.

No. If one actually, THINKS much at all, rather than just spouting off bumper-sticker slogans or reacting from some anarchist view of all laws being infringements of liberties, he realizes that some laws dealing with guns are quite beneficial to the gun owner.

As for the much longer list of gun laws that are bad, we're doing a fine job of whittling away at those here such that today, I can make a strong case that in total, Utah is one of the best States in the nation (and thus one of the best jurisdictions in the entire world) for the person who desires to legally carry a gun for self-defense. We did this through old-fashioned hard work using effective means. And it has taken a couple of decades. But it has happened and continues to happen. I'd be thrilled if some kind of "Gold fringe on the flag" or "I don't recognize the authority of this court" or even "My earnings are not 'income' and my motorcarriage is not a commercial vehicle" kind of thing would magically get us what we wanted overnight. But it hasn't. Neither have court cases arguing that "All gun laws are an affront the Constitution". So rather than waste time on such silver bullets, we've just buckled down and done some hard work.

Do let me know when your preferred methods start to yield similar fruit. Heaven knows I'd love to find a new hobby and prove that eternal vigilance isn't actually required to retain or regain liberty.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
I was on another site that deals with survival and a board, and someone on there asked about what is the best state a gun owner could move to
I suggested they look at the brady bunch chart and invert it

A good place to start. And fortunately, there are enough really good States, that even for the person for whom RKBA is his most important deciding factor, he can readily move on to secondary factors like geography/weather, other cultural aspects of the area, etc.

One can also look at specific sub-sets of RKBA or areas related to RKBA for States that do a little better than other. Some States are friendlier to permit-free carry than others. Some States have fewer locations legally off limits. At least one State specifically protects the ability of most government employees (including school teachers) to carry firearms on the job. Some States have far better hunting (and hunting laws) than do other States.

I remember when the options for a good quality, reasonable cost concealable firearm were pretty slim. Options for women's smaller hands were all but non-existent. Now look at where we are, thanks in part to what Florida started. My State has a total of 3 million residents (most of them children :) ), and has nearly 600,000 permits to carry currently valid, nearly 200,000 of those issued to Utah residents. Over 6% of all residents in my State have a permit to carry. That works out to about 10% of all adults (age 21 and older) in Utah. Run that across the nation and we're talking about 3 to 6 million persons with permits to carry firearms, plus those who live in one of the growing number of States that don't require a permit (Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming, etc), plus those who routinely OC legally without a permit. Millions of individuals legally able to carry firearms for self-defense is a sizable market for which lots of products are now available that weren't before. There is an entire ecosystem (to use a software term) today for the law-abiding-citizen who wants to carry a firearm, that simply did not exist as recently as 20 years ago. And I believe that the totality of this eco-system had some positive effect in the Heller and McDonald decisions.

And if there is any advantage to the 90%+ incumbent re-election rate in Congress, it is that a lot of gun grabbers on both sides of the aisle remember what happened to the Democrats in congressional races in '94 and the presidential race in 2000 as a result of their '94 scary looking gun ban and other overt hostilities to our RKBA.

It is a great time to be a gun owner in this nation. Our biggest challenge seems to be motivating fellow gun owners to keep doing the good work because things are so good, in so many areas, that one might mistakenly think not much more is needed. That is the kind of problem we like to have.

Charles
 

Renegadez

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
182
Location
Lees Summit
Do let me know when your preferred methods start to yield similar fruit. Heaven knows I'd love to find a new hobby and prove that eternal vigilance isn't actually required to retain or regain liberty.

This IS one of the best things i have read on the forum "Eternal Vigilance". What a huge statement and huge responsibility that those seemingly simply two words have yet ringing true and brilliant.
 
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