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Thread: CHP denied by sheriff, questions and what i can do

  1. #1
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    Question CHP denied by sheriff, questions and what i can do

    So let me start off by saying thank you for reading this post. My case is somewhat complex so I will fo my best to keep it simple. In March of 2012 I had a medical marijuana card, I also was given a .357 revolver for my birthday the previous year. March 11th of that year, I had smoke some marijuana at 1:00pm. Then waited about 8 hours and decided to disassemble my gun and clean all of the internals. In the course of doing so i could not for the life of me figure out what I was doing wrong, I couldnt get the cylinder to be turned by pulling back on the hammer, and with a high degree of mis-judgement i put a cartridge in the weapon to see if that would change anything. After manipulating the hammer back and forth a few times, it slipped from my grasp and hit the primer causing the gun to fire, I had a friend present and it hit her in the shoulder. I immediately drove her to the emergency room, went back home to pick up the kids who were sleeping in the other end of the house and took them to my mothers house. I returned to the hospital, and learned that my friend was trying to lie for me and say a random person shot her. I went straight in and asked to speak with officers, and I gave a full confession because i really didnt have anything to hide. I was arrested/charged and released a few hours later. After it was all said and done the prosecutor decided to close the case and declined to move forward with charges so it ended there. Now in October of 2014, I applied for a CCW permit (well over 2 1/2 years) and was initially denied, following a hearing yesterday the sheriff once again denied me on the second review. I furnished proof that i got rid of my MMJ card in April 2012, even provided a recent negative drug test from work. I explained that since 2012 i have started a career, dont use any drugs or even drink for that matter, and have went on countless trips to the range to practice shooting and gun safety. Pretty much the sheriff of ADCO said that i still present a danger to the public and myself based on what happened. I tried to explain that when something as serious as this happens, safety with a firearm is engrained into the brain. I did some reading after the meeting and according to:

    CRS 18-12-203 " If the sheriff has a reasonable belief that documented previous behavior by the applicant makes it likely the applicant will present a danger to self or others if the applicant receives a permit to carry a concealed handgun, the sheriff may deny the permit." *

    How the law is worded, it says IF i recieve the permit that will present a danger. I just dont understand how it is legal for me to own, purchase, and openly carry a firearm, but just because I dont want to alarm the public and would rather conceal it, that presents a danger.

    They want me to wait 5 years to apply for the permit again. Ive contacted a lawyer to see what options i have, also since the incident I have not even had so much as a parking ticket. Again I know this incident is my fault, and i took full responsibility for my actions, I thank god every day that my friend wasnt killed. I just dont want to see my right to be protected diminished because of this. I told them i was in a hobby lobby the previous week which was robbed, and the store told all of the customers to wait in back of the store, which made me feel more unsafe than ever, and all the sheriff had to say was "You dont need a concealed handgun for protection, and if you think you do, dont go to places where you think you will" It has been two yearsand nine months since the incident, any input is appreciated

    1. EVERY FIREARM IS LOADED
    2.NEVER POINT THE WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO FIRE AT
    3.KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF OF THE TRIGGER UNTIL READY TO FIRE
    4.ALWAYS BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum Martinez11. While this is an open carry forum and you can and apparent do OC, we try to answer such questions as best as we can.

    The most important question is what did the attorney say? I would encourage you to consider taking that council over ours - we are not attorneys. After having talked with an attorney and if you are going to pursue in accordance with what you were advised, you gain nothing by posting the details here, except to expose yourself to voluntarily providing testimony against yourself - the information here is publicly available.
    This thread can be deleted if you so request it by PM to me or just the details removed by you via editing.

    Nevertheless, I am somewhat confused as Colorado is known as a shall issue state - the Sheriff has no discretion. Presuming that you have no statutory restriction(s), have satisfied the requirements, submitted the proper paper work and money, then the permit shall/must be issued.

    "(3) In accordance with the findings and conclusions specified in subsections (1) and (2) of this section, the general assembly
    hereby instructs each sheriff to implement and administer the provisions of this part 2.
    The general assembly does not delegate
    to the sheriffs the authority to regulate or restrict the issuance of
    permits provided for in this part 2 beyond the provisions of
    this part 2.
    An action or rule that encumbers
    the permit process by placing burdens on the applicant beyond those sworn
    statements and specified
    documents detailed in this part 2 or that creates restrictions beyond those specified in this part 2 is in
    conflict with the intent of this part 2 and is prohibited."

    http://concealedcarryforfree.com/wp-...-12-Part-2.pdf

    As you will note, I am not in/from Colorado. Others more familiar with your state laws should be along shortly. They may add or correct my understanding. Good luck.

    Know the laws and any limitations - OC wherever you may. It is liberating and effective.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-19-2014 at 11:29 AM. Reason: high lighted
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    OP - I am in Jefferson County, and got my CHP when Sheriff Minck was still in office. I understand that Adams County also got a new Sheriff this year (Michael McIntosh, I believe). One of my co-workers lives there, and notes that sheriff Douglas Darr was a PITA with regards to CHPs. So my question is if Sheriff McIntosh has taken office, yet - I actually don't know when the Sheriff's offices actually changes hands.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackrockblc View Post
    OP - I am in Jefferson County, and got my CHP when Sheriff Minck was still in office. I understand that Adams County also got a new Sheriff this year (Michael McIntosh, I believe). One of my co-workers lives there, and notes that sheriff Douglas Darr was a PITA with regards to CHPs. So my question is if Sheriff McIntosh has taken office, yet - I actually don't know when the Sheriff's offices actually changes hands.
    Call them and ask them, no reason need be given.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    CRS 18-12-203 " If the sheriff has a reasonable belief that documented previous behavior by the applicant makes it likely the applicant will present a danger to self or others if the applicant receives a permit to carry a concealed handgun, the sheriff may deny the permit." *


    Simple admin law here ... does the sheriff have ANY evidence that would support his claim. If so, you WILL NOT win any appeal.

    I think its clear he did have evidence. Does not matter if your life is better now.

    You need to change the law. Right now, you are outta luck.

    You needed not to show how a nice guy you are today but should have shown evidence that your previous issue should not be used as a predictor of future events and that the incident is not relevant and object to it being considered in your permit application process.

    You should have posted before your hearing ..
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-20-2014 at 11:59 PM.

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    ..

    I honestly believe you are not the person to own a firearm much less have a ccw.
    Maybe you should give up the pot and join the military first.

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszu View Post
    I honestly believe you are not the person to own a firearm much less have a ccw.
    Maybe you should give up the pot and join the military first.
    The OP has already addressed that issue - old news.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Look, waiting 5 yrs that they recommended? Its garbage advice just to keep you away.

    I would look to re-file right away.

    But you do have an issue -- they already ruled on your application once. The opposing party could make a claim preclusion (res judicata) that would likely cause the appeal board to rule again against you.

    So, how do you avoid that? Well, first you have to examine if res judicata can be raised in the appeal venue. Some admin law allows it and some don't...it depends on the state and the venue (the admin board you will go before). So if you want to file in the same place, you would have to examine this aspect of the law. Not a hard legal research to perform -- a record request to the admin agency seeking cases that previously had a claim preclusion / res judicata claim made by a respondent ("defendant" in an admin case - you are the "complainant"). But even if a claim preclusion could be made, if the opposing party does not bring it up, then its moot - claim preclusions must be raised by a party, not the adjudicating body (hey, the respondent may wish to re-litigate the same issues). This is one aspect of filing in the same place -- if res judicata defense can be raised I would to my next suggestion in the next paragraph because I'm sure the appeal board would highlight to the opposing party and hint to them to raise it as a defense.

    To avoid res judicata defense, you move and/or apply so that a new respondent is the opposing party. A different county with a different sheriff. For res judicata, most all of the time, it requires the exact same parties to be involved with the case (again, chk case law in your location). By filing in another county you bypass a claim preclusion defense.

    Now that you have the claim preclusion defense gone by one way or another you'll have a brand new case.

    So you will need to prepare for the new case. The goal is to keep out the information regarding your history. Now all admin law that I have seen requires that immaterial or irrelevant evidence cannot be admitted into evidence. That's your goal. From the very beginning of the process from your application for a permit to the proceedings in the appeal process. You have no conviction so I don't see how your 2012 incident matters at all; its immaterial and irrelevant. Using weed? I also do not see how that's relevant. Remember - you do not have the burden of proof as to the relevancy of this "evidence", the party wishing to bring it into the proceeding does.

    In admin cases through, rules of evidence generally are not applicable. No foundation generally has to be made. But arguments of consul is not evidence either. Hearsay evidence is generally allowed unless it goes right to the heart of the matter and is so prejudicial to your case to require it not to be admissible (see case law). So one has to be super aware of statements being made and other evidence being presented and be ready to object at all stages from the application to the actual hearing.

    Knowing how to answer questions and knowing how to and when to object in the process is key as you have already found out. Stuff like you save kittens from drowning? Nobody cares. You are a nice guy? Nobody cares.

    Go and watch many appeal cases being heard, you may observe one "judge" seeing arguments of one type being seen as favorable to complainants or respondents. And hold multiple "fake" hearings with friends, having them being a "judge" and consul and witnesses for the opposing party.

    Don't be afraid to cross examine witnesses ~ indeed you should perform a detailed cross (but not asking questions where the response can hurt you). With cops I usually ask the questions that they hate to answer like "did you graduate high school", "did you graduate college", "what did you major in college", "how old are you (if he's young or older)", "are you a licensed psychologist?", "are you an expert in psychology"...let the facts be known that the witness is basically a lay person and not an expert (do not ask if he is an expert on anything ~ first, expert witnesses need to be divulged before any hearing to the opposing party and your prior queries will note that he is not an expert in fields that are relevant). Ask leading questions (not supposed to but if no objection is made to a questions and the "judges" allow them they are the best questions to ask -- simple yes or no responses are the best"; ask if he is a veteran and then ask if he thinks vets have better suitability to get a permit (its a trap--there is not requirement) than non-vets; then ask if the law requires a permit holder to be a vet; then ask what other qualifications would he require for people applying for a permit that the law does not. see how to examine someone? Anticipate his testimony and write questions to ask him, short simple yes or no, questions that lead the judge to think that his testimony is not worthy of consideration.

    I do this type of examination all the time .. like in a speeding ticket case the cop will always say "I saw him speeding and then measured his speed with my speed measuring device (SMD)"...which causes these cross-exam queries: how long of a time period did you observe me during your observation? How far did my vehicle travel. And I usually can get them to testify to a range of time and distance and using that testimony, show that his speed measuring device is wrong by doing simple math and calculating the speed based on his testimony. but in my state, a cop's testimony of his visual guess of a vehicle's speed is not enough for a conviction-they must present a SMD reading that has been of a calibrated SMD and no court has allowed the SMD's calibration certificate admitted into evidence in any of my cases as I object to the introduction of it and all judges have not allowed it into evidence. So I do my cross just in case.

    So how to win admin cases like this? Its simple: keep out evidence that can hurt you from being on the record that the judges can place reliance upon. This starts from the beginning, ie the application itself (and what constitutes a proper application should be in the statues ~ don't assume its an application on a form that the gov't provides, read the law to your advantage~if you can just type a letter asking for a permit and that can be an adequate application then you should use this route).

    The admin process is not a fair process IMO and you have to be a bit of your own super-advocate as the adjudicators generally are pro-govermental bodies.

    If you need help shoot me a pm I'd be glad to help.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-23-2014 at 02:35 AM.

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    gnarly

    Sucks to learn the 4 rules the hard way.

    I don't have any legal advice for you. Keep at it, the system is designed to slow you down and make you give up.

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    You are entitled tonthink what you want, but you dont know me buddy

    [QUOTE=lukaszu;2116603]I honestly believe you are not the person to own a firearm much less have a ccw.
    Maybe you should give up the pot and join the military

    You have a right to think what you want but I really dont care about your negative opinion

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    Thumbs up Thanks for the info guys

    As of now I am just back to working after wasting the time and money with the sheriff. I actually talked to a pro gun attorney who said he would love to prove the sheriff wrong. I explained the situation and in so many words, becuase there was an injury to someone it is going to make it almost impossible for any sheriff or judge to rule in my favor, And yes this is one of the worst ways to have to learn the 4 Golden rules. I was in a bad place back then but I made the necessary changes and became a pipe welder in less than 2 years. I am going to keep fighting the good fight make the future better. (All this crime around town isnt helping though). Thank you all for your wisdom. MM

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    Whom it may concern

    Guys i was NOT trying to come off as, "Hey I messed up but im a nice guy so forgive me," No. After that happened I took action and drastically changed my situation, . Thats all I was trying to prove to the "lawman" but it fell on deaf ears. Im not looking for sympathy, or someone to help me change my life, just looking to see how I can keep my rights, and not be discriminated against because of my past troubles

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    Political Action

    If you believe you have been wrongly denied a CHP (and the # of discretionary denials are rising in Colorado), you have four alternatives:

    1. Go to court. You will fund your lawsuit and could end up paying the county's legal expenses if you lose. The county will defend with an unlimited war chest of taxpayer dollars. The county has no economic incentive to settle and even if you win at the trial level, expect an appeal (that you will also pay for).

    2. Use the money you would have spent on a lawyer to support the opponent of the sheriff or fund a recall effort. Nothing gets a politician's attention like the prospect of being kicked out of office. Likely as not, if you have been denied a CHP, so have others in your community. Connect with them. Also support the effort in Colorado to do away with CHPs and enact Constitutional Carry. Contact Senator Vicki Marble (sponsor of the bill now winding through the Colorado legislature) to see how to engage.

    3. Get a non-resident permit from one of the states that do not give discretion to the sheriff. Those include NV, UT, FL. They are not good in CO, but allow you to carry concealed outside CO. A CO permit is not recognized in many states, BTW, like NV.

    4. Open carry. But, be prepared for nervous folks and LE who view gun owners as criminals.

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    If you were not charged with a crime and if you have no record and you are not deemed to have mental issues then I cannot see how the sheriff/state will deny you your constitutional right " to keep and bear arms".

    This scenario is akin to a roofer accidentally falling off a roof and then the state denying the roofer a license to be a roofer...

    My .02
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    4. Open carry. But, be prepared for nervous folks and LE who view gun owners as criminals.
    Problem solved. But, be prepared to be surprised at the lack of reaction from most folks, including cops.

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    Open Carry for now. Hope for constitutional carry

    I have thought about taking this matter to court, but as MarkS said, the county has unlimited tax dollars they can use to keep this away from me. I cant go up against a giant anytime soon and risk taking a huge financial loss. I wont let this get me down though. Just open carry, and wait for this snow to go away for some more range time. Also to countryclubjoe its just a tricky case, arrested but not charged. At the hearing the sheriff pulled out photos from the scene of the incident and used it to justify his answer is what I think. Even after pointing out that I still have gun rights and also open carry a firearm. Many have said its just designed to make those that can possibly fail, fail. I will try and contact Sen. Marble and see what I can do to get involved. Criminals are carrying guns on Denver streets as we speak, with the police not able to do anything about it, except deny me the right to carry that same gun in my own defense. People say it would be like the wild west, no it would be an Armed, Polite Society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinez11 View Post
    I have thought about taking this matter to court, but as MarkS said, the county has unlimited tax dollars they can use to keep this away from me. I cant go up against a giant anytime soon and risk taking a huge financial loss. I wont let this get me down though. Just open carry, and wait for this snow to go away for some more range time. Also to countryclubjoe its just a tricky case, arrested but not charged. At the hearing the sheriff pulled out photos from the scene of the incident and used it to justify his answer is what I think. Even after pointing out that I still have gun rights and also open carry a firearm. Many have said its just designed to make those that can possibly fail, fail. I will try and contact Sen. Marble and see what I can do to get involved. Criminals are carrying guns on Denver streets as we speak, with the police not able to do anything about it, except deny me the right to carry that same gun in my own defense. People say it would be like the wild west, no it would be an Armed, Polite Society.
    If you can, move to Idaho and get an Idaho permit. Colorado will recognize an Idaho residents permit and then when you visit Colorado your good to go, besides Idaho is so gun friendly and it keeps getting better so why stay in oppressive states.

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    I think this gentleman probably should look to other SD options. He was playing with his firearm with someone in the room, he put a round in the chamber, pointing it at the friend, pulled the trigger and shot her.

    To me that's ample proof that there's a lack of caution and good sense. A layered home security system and carry a cane and OC spray should suffice.

    My opinion, of course.

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    Thumbs down Obviously cant read

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I think this gentleman probably should look to other SD options. He was playing with his firearm with someone in the room, he put a round in the chamber, pointing it at the friend, pulled the trigger and shot her.

    To me that's ample proof that there's a lack of caution and good sense. A layered home security system and carry a cane and OC spray should suffice.

    My opinion, of course.
    So out of all that you come out with, "Playing with a gun and pointed it at the friend, pulled the trigger and shot her". Way to make a horrible situation look a thousand times worse. Not once did I intentionally point it at anyone, nor was I "playing" with the firearm. This was an unfortunate case of negligence that I admitted to, took a course of action to change it, but I still have to deal with close-minded people like you that think if a person makes a mistake it can never be changed, that it has to hang over their head and affect them for the rest of their life. You go ahead and try to survive in this world with your security system and "cane". Just to ease your nerves a little bit, I have taken gun safety classes, been to the range hundreds of times in the last few years, and am 100% sober. Holding down a steady welding job and contributing to society. So my right to carry a gun is still here and I will continue to do so. If you still have negative thoughts after reading this than just keep them to yourself because everyone else that is here, is here to help each other. Good day

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinez11 View Post
    So out of all that you come out with, "Playing with a gun and pointed it at the friend, pulled the trigger and shot her". Way to make a horrible situation look a thousand times worse. Not once did I intentionally point it at anyone, nor was I "playing" with the firearm. This was an unfortunate case of negligence that I admitted to, took a course of action to change it, but I still have to deal with close-minded people like you that think if a person makes a mistake it can never be changed, that it has to hang over their head and affect them for the rest of their life. You go ahead and try to survive in this world with your security system and "cane". Just to ease your nerves a little bit, I have taken gun safety classes, been to the range hundreds of times in the last few years, and am 100% sober. Holding down a steady welding job and contributing to society. So my right to carry a gun is still here and I will continue to do so. If you still have negative thoughts after reading this than just keep them to yourself because everyone else that is here, is here to help each other. Good day
    Engaging in defense of self rants and insults benefits no one.

    Most of us understand your situation. You must remember though you posted the info here, thereby inviting comment - gotta take the negative with the positive......otherwise do not post personal experiences.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I am sorry martinez11, but taking numerous quote gun safety classes, been to the range hundreds of times in the last few years, and am 100% sober. Holding down a steady welding job and contributing to society unquote yet you seem apparently quite reactionary to criticism to something you brought up on a public forum. succinctly stated, based on what you posted... what maverick stated is what occurred YOU shot someone with a firearm!!

    you have been given advice, yet not provided any feedback on you follow through to include you calmly scheduling an appointment with the deputy in charge of Adam's County CHP section where you in an non-adversarial conversation about YOUR path forward to getting your CO CHP.

    mate, we all make mistakes ~ both while young but also when older, but your defensiveness tells a lot and may be what is precluding you from reaching a satisfactory resolution, but only you know where it stems from and only you can decide to stay in the 'woe is me' mentality or put that mentality behind you and move on.

    So best of luck in your quest, but the one lesson you should have learned by now by posting your personal experience on a public forum is to put your bloody ego in your pocket, take the free advice with a grain of salt, and move on that advice which seems reasonable to you to reach your quest.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-08-2015 at 07:42 PM.
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    Understood this is public, and people have opinions

    Defensiveness= defending myself when people make the situation even worse than it is, by pretty much implying that it was intentional. I have provided the changes ive made in my life, ive talked to the sheriff and lawyers about how to proceed and that is what I am doing. Keeping on the straight and narrow. It seems like still though, thats not good enough. I am trying, people change and so do their actions.

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    Just a request

    Everyone who has commented I do thank for the input. Its not that I am getting angry and getting an attitude with you guys, its just frustrating hearing these same remarks from family, friends, police, medical professionals, etc for the last three years. Im not trying to shift blame or forget about what happened, but more just trying to move forward from where I was. Once again, everyone is entitled to their opinion 100%, I am planning on taking NRA classes in the future, I want to possibly share my story with other people that are new to firearms. Thank you all for listening

  24. #24
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    So...
    Details aside, your permit to Conceal was denied.

    Yet as I understand it, you can still pass a background check to purchase a firearm. Well then...

    Welcome to Open Carry! That's what we do here and what we talk about.

    Even without a permit, you can legally open carry in the state of Colorado. Strap on a holster.
    Show everyone that you actually are and mean to be a responsible member of society.

    Congratulations.

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    March on

    James B thank you for the welcome. I have been open carrying for awhile but sometimes find myself stuck on whether or not to carry into some places. It will all come in Due time.

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