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Did Ferguson Prosecutor McCulloch manipulate grand jury into falsifying testimony???

Which statement about McCulloch is closest to the truth?

  • He intentionally manipulated the grand jury into falsifying evidence

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • He presented evidence in a biased manner.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • He presented evidence in an objective manner.

    Votes: 7 43.8%

  • Total voters
    16

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation
McCulloch did not preside over the GJ. Two of his assistants did. He gave the GJ a brief on the extension of their time and what to expect being GJ members the the GJ went about doing there work. Admin stuff. A start witness, who lied, was supporting DWs version. She saw nothing, the physical evidence proved this.

Yes, he did is job and his assistants presented the fact objectively. It is what it is.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Indeed.

Do you believe there was some delegation from McCulloch to his assistants, or did they likely act independently?

McCulloch admitted allowing the GJ to hear false testimony. He could have put it off on his subs, but he didn't because we all know he was in charge. In many states that is a crime, Mike Nifong was disbarred and prosecuted for the very same thing.

But hey MB deserved to die, he was black, big, and a demon with Hulk Hogan strength.:rolleyes:
 
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utbagpiper

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Messages
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Utah
Anyone who doesn't think this smells to high heaven has their head in the sand or is a cop apologist.

WalkingWolf said:
But hey MB deserved to die, he was black, big, and a demon with Hulk Hogan strength.

I'm no cop apologist. We've had a couple of rank cases here in my area that actually do stink to high heaven. But in both the victims were white so no national press.

A few weeks ago a couple of cops made contact with a fellow carrying a sword in a shopping mall area. They claim he ended up lunging at them and then running, sword in hand, toward a crowded area. They shot him. This time the "victim" was black and all kinds of local outrage. The initial stop and subsequent shooting perhaps have room for some questions. But why the questions so much more vocally and visibly when the "victim" is black, rather than white? No doubt black lives matter, but do they matter more than white lives? Do the lives of long-time criminals or even first time violent offenders matter more than the lives of cops just based on respective races?

I tire of the race card. I don't think MB "deserved to die". But neither did the officer deserve to die, nor even be beaten to a pulp. We can berate the officer for his tactical mistakes in which he "allowed himself" to be assaulted. But did he deserve to be assaulted?

No doubt that cops make contact with or even detain individuals far more often than "The Truth" or "WalkingWolf" do. But once an interaction has started, for whatever reason, I wonder how either of you two would respond to being physically assaulted and/or someone trying violently and illegally to take your gun from you.

When someone physically assaults an armed person (private citizen or cop) I simply can't muster too much sympathy if that someone ends up with some gun shot wounds. And when a heretofore law-abiding person (including a cop) tells me he was assaulted, and there is physical evidence to back up that testimony I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt over a violent criminal or even someone with known mental illness. It is what I would do for WalkingWolf or "The Truth" or any other private citizen. It is what I will do for the cops.

Show me evidence the cop wasn't assaulted, or first engaged in grossly illegal and violent conduct to which someone responded in legitimate self-defense, and I'll condemn the cop just as I would any other criminal.

Did the cop deserve to get beat? Did he deserve to die? Was he entitled to defend himself?

It seems to me the grand jury heard just about every witness who claimed to be a witness. They were presented all the physical evidence available. They chose not to indict.

Show me the DA's office withheld evidence that would have called for an indictment and I'll get concerned.

But you all are pissed that there wasn't an indictment after he allowed a less-than-fully-credible witness to testify, which testimony if believed would have lead to an indictment? I'm not following the logic.

At the end of the day, we believe it is better for 10 guilty to go free than for one innocent to be wrongly convicted. Do you believe that when the person who stands accused wears a badge? Or do you reserve the right for yourself while denying it to others?

Charles
 

The Truth

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Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
I'm no cop apologist. We've had a couple of rank cases here in my area that actually do stink to high heaven. But in both the victims were white so no national press.

A few weeks ago a couple of cops made contact with a fellow carrying a sword in a shopping mall area. They claim he ended up lunging at them and then running, sword in hand, toward a crowded area. They shot him. This time the "victim" was black and all kinds of local outrage. The initial stop and subsequent shooting perhaps have room for some questions. But why the questions so much more vocally and visibly when the "victim" is black, rather than white? No doubt black lives matter, but do they matter more than white lives? Do the lives of long-time criminals or even first time violent offenders matter more than the lives of cops just based on respective races?

I tire of the race card. I don't think MB "deserved to die". But neither did the officer deserve to die, nor even be beaten to a pulp. We can berate the officer for his tactical mistakes in which he "allowed himself" to be assaulted. But did he deserve to be assaulted?

No doubt that cops make contact with or even detain individuals far more often than "The Truth" or "WalkingWolf" do. But once an interaction has started, for whatever reason, I wonder how either of you two would respond to being physically assaulted and/or someone trying violently and illegally to take your gun from you.

When someone physically assaults an armed person (private citizen or cop) I simply can't muster too much sympathy if that someone ends up with some gun shot wounds. And when a heretofore law-abiding person (including a cop) tells me he was assaulted, and there is physical evidence to back up that testimony I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt over a violent criminal or even someone with known mental illness. It is what I would do for WalkingWolf or "The Truth" or any other private citizen. It is what I will do for the cops.

Show me evidence the cop wasn't assaulted, or first engaged in grossly illegal and violent conduct to which someone responded in legitimate self-defense, and I'll condemn the cop just as I would any other criminal.

Did the cop deserve to get beat? Did he deserve to die? Was he entitled to defend himself?

It seems to me the grand jury heard just about every witness who claimed to be a witness. They were presented all the physical evidence available. They chose not to indict.

Show me the DA's office withheld evidence that would have called for an indictment and I'll get concerned.

But you all are pissed that there wasn't an indictment after he allowed a less-than-fully-credible witness to testify, which testimony if believed would have lead to an indictment? I'm not following the logic.

At the end of the day, we believe it is better for 10 guilty to go free than for one innocent to be wrongly convicted. Do you believe that when the person who stands accused wears a badge? Or do you reserve the right for yourself while denying it to others?

Charles
Well I don't remember mentioning race.

I think I can answer your question by saying that I believe cops should be held to a little bit higher standard in regards to lethal force than they are currently. Maybe training in certain departments is insufficient, I don't know. The problem is the propensity of some cops to agitate a situation using their authority which could have been approached in a different manner without the situation escalating to the level of violence.

I'm not a Mike Brown apologist either. Eric Garner, little bit different story. Either way, I do not believe that the death of the "perpetrator" was the only outcome of either situation.

Just like the wise ones on this forum suggest to activists that they settle matters in court instead of on the street, the same should be true of police. I'm not saying there isn't a time and a place for lethal force, but it would benefit society if it were a little more rare.
 
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utbagpiper

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Messages
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Location
Utah
I think I can answer your question by saying that I believe cops should be held to a little bit higher standard in regards to lethal force than they are currently. Maybe training in certain departments is insufficient, I don't know. The problem is the propensity of some cops to agitate a situation using their authority which could have been approached in a different manner without the situation escalating to the level of violence.

I'm not a Mike Brown apologist either. Eric Garner, little bit different story. Either way, I do not believe that the death of the "perpetrator" was the only outcome of either situation.

Just like the wise ones on this forum suggest to activists that they settle matters in court instead of on the street, the same should be true of police. I'm not saying there isn't a time and a place for lethal force, but it would benefit society if it were a little more rare.

I can't disagree with any of this.

At the same time, I recognize that I have the opportunity, even an obligation (moral if not legal) to walk away from or even entirely avoid as many potentially violent situations as possible. Police officers do not have that same opportunity. They have an obligation (again, moral/ethical even if not legally enforceable) to do just the opposite: to confront dangerous individuals, to keep the peace, to make arrests, to uphold and enforce the laws of the land.

We in the gun owning and carrying community are fond of quoting Heinlein in claiming an armed society is a polite society. If we believe that, we have to expect people to be polite even when being confronted by agents of the state. I don't want cops escalating needlessly. But I cannot tolerate someone assaulting cops even if the cops were less than perfect in how they handled a situation. Cops are human. We are all prone to being a bit jerky at times.

Mild offense does not justify physical assault. But physical assault, especially if there is any hint of trying to gain control of a firearm, may well warrant a very serious response. We all don't own and carry guns primarily for recreation or even defense against man eating animals. I think it safe to say we carry guns largely for defense against human predators. The same guys we do our best to avoid, are exactly the reason we hire cops in the first place.

There seems to be pretty good evidence Mike Brown assaulted an innocent store clerk and stole his property (strong arm robbery). He was not a nice nor polite person.

Let us review Heinlein's quote in more context:

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

Mike Brown lucked out when he assaulted an unarmed store clerk. His luck ended when he assaulted an armed man who happened to be a cop.

I avoid yelling insults to anyone. But were I to insult someone, that would not give him license to try to kill me through my car window. Even the old "fighting words" would give him no more license than a mild physical rebuke such as a slap to the face. Any of us, subjected to the kind of physical assault the evidence suggests Officer Wilson received and that he testified was severe enough to put him into grave danger of his life, would respond with deadly force.

Holding cops to account does not mean indicting nor convicting cops who have used deadly force in response to serious physical assaults.

There are some cases that need indictments, convictions, and serious punishment. Good cops and their unions need to stop shielding or standing by silently when bad cops commit crimes. But calling for a cop's head even when the shoot is justified certainly won't help in these regards.

Charles
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Indeed.

Do you believe there was some delegation from McCulloch to his assistants, or did they likely act independently?

McCulloch admitted allowing the GJ to hear false testimony. He could have put it off on his subs, but he didn't because we all know he was in charge. In many states that is a crime, Mike Nifong was disbarred and prosecuted for the very same thing.

But hey MB deserved to die, he was black, big, and a demon with Hulk Hogan strength.:rolleyes:
I related what McCulloch said on the radio, here in STL. Read the GJ report, all of it, I did, BORING!!!, then come back and take a dump on my innocuous post again if you wish. If anything McCulloch let all the liars have their say regardless of which side the lie resided on.

Pipe dream? Reality is quite clear, juries, even GJs, are very reluctant to hold obviously lawless cops to account for acts committed under the guise of their official duties. The cop's LEA and his cop union thug(s) are even worse. Our only redress is via a civil action and even then relief is rare.

When a citizen, who just happens to be employed as a cop, breaks the law, like any other citizen who breaks the law, that is not a bad cop, per se. When a cop uses his authority to violate a citizen, he is a "bad cop." Yet, the "system" is loath to hold to account and bad cop. Top cops always take credit for "firing cops" yet bad cops are rarely held to account.

So, what is it we must do? That is the $64 question.
 
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