WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Sheep dogs do not occasionally eat the sheep, p*** poor analogy. Some people think violence, pain, and mayhem are more acceptable coming from government, as long as they are not on the receiving end.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Man kills 2 cops in apparent retaliation for police killings NYC
- Thread starter twoskinsonemanns
- Start date
Sheep dogs do not occasionally eat the sheep, p*** poor analogy. Some people think violence, pain, and mayhem are more acceptable coming from government, as long as they are not on the receiving end.
"Protestors did not kill the two slain officers. Politicians, grand juries, or police unions did not murder them either. Ismaaiyl Brinsley killed the two police men and he alone is the one with blood on his hands."
http://theantimedia.org/deaths-of-two-nypd-cops/
http://theantimedia.org/deaths-of-two-nypd-cops/
OC for ME
Regular Member
Moot point now, but this tragic event will be used by the "system" to potentially erode individual liberty further. The system will play on the sympathies of the citizenry, to please understand and endure the obvious excesses, in the name of justice and safety, of state agents when they occur.
Remember the Boston Constitution Suspension Event. Some citizens are more compliant than others. It is NYC though, so, not much different than Boston in this regard.
Jeff. State
Banned
Well it appears a "sheep" was previously unnecessarily bitten by the sheep dogs, and decided no more. He couldn't blame the drug dog as it did it's job properly and showed no interest in his bag.
Video Taken by NYPD Killer Surfaces, Shows Him Being Shaken Down by K-9 Unit Last Year
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/video-nypd-killer-surfaces-shows-shaken-k-9-unit-year/
[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d35_1419127560[/video]
Video Taken by NYPD Killer Surfaces, Shows Him Being Shaken Down by K-9 Unit Last Year
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/video-nypd-killer-surfaces-shows-shaken-k-9-unit-year/
[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d35_1419127560[/video]
Last edited:
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Doesn't change his illegal and insane act of killing the two officers. But it is a signal that oppression can create monsters, he was clearly oppressed in the video. And history tells us that oppression breeds violence on both sides of the coin.
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
utbagpiper
Banned
What oppressive boot?
I mean really. How many people have (yet) had unpleasant police encounters over refusing to comply with Obamacare mandates? How many people who object to providing goods and services to and having to attend homosexual "wedding" ceremonies have been gunned down by cops? How many hard working folks are getting into shoot outs with cops over income tax rates?
Recreational drug laws and sentences imposed for drug violations are looser now than they have been for some 50 years. It seems like nearly every election another State makes medical and/or recreational pot legal. And the feds are very deliberately reducing sentences for various drug violations. How many 70 years are getting shot for doing stuff that was legal when they were kids and is now illegal?
Speed limits on highways and freeways are higher than at any point since Nixon was in office and first imposed the deplorable and scientifically unsupportable nationwide double-nickel.
Minorities--including racial, religious, sexual, etc--enjoy greater legal protections and more sympathy from the media and pop culture than at any time in our nation's history, quite possibly in recorded history. Police are under more scrutiny regarding their conduct toward various minorities. Does nobody remember (nor study any history to know) regarding how the government responded to protests on college campuses in the 60s and 70s? The National Guard wasn't a rare "show of force" they were commonly deployed and used force. I had a high school teacher in the 80s who related to us having fully armed National Guard troops in the halls of his big city High School in the 70s.
The nation has a larger "safety net" (ie free stuff given to people who don't work, paid for by those who do work) than at any time in our history and dramatically more available with fewer requirements since Clinton and the GOP congress of the mid 90s did some modest welfare reforms.
Sure, NSA wiretaps or data gathering from cell phones makes great headlines and causes concern, some of it even legitimately. But how many of those shot by cops were in that situation because of anything the NSA did?
RKBA (and other constitutional rights) have probably never enjoyed greater statutory protection in modern times, especially for anyone who isn't a land-owning, white male.
We almost had a shooting incident regarding federal land use policy here in the West. But nothing like what we see going on in the inner cities on a fairly regular basis.
We certainly have not achieved utopia for freedom and liberty. But I really don't see that things are materially worse today than they have been for quite some time and in most cases, things are quite better.
The first step to solving a problem is to accurately assess/diagnose the problem. And frankly, I'm not really seeing much evidence that police violence or violence in general has much to do with "government oppression."
Charles
Then you've got your blinders on.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
The narcissist lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
The American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV
Lack of empathy is one of the most striking features of people with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a hallmark of the disorder in the same way that fear of abandonment is in borderline personality disorder.
"Narcissists do not consider the pain they inflict on others; nor do they give any credence to others' perceptions," says Dr. Les Carter in the book Enough of You, Let's Talk About Me (p. 9). "They simply do not care about thoughts and feelings that conflict with their own." Do not expect them to listen, validate, understand, or support you.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...k-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait
This is a trait of most criminals, and those people who support criminals.
The American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV
Lack of empathy is one of the most striking features of people with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a hallmark of the disorder in the same way that fear of abandonment is in borderline personality disorder.
"Narcissists do not consider the pain they inflict on others; nor do they give any credence to others' perceptions," says Dr. Les Carter in the book Enough of You, Let's Talk About Me (p. 9). "They simply do not care about thoughts and feelings that conflict with their own." Do not expect them to listen, validate, understand, or support you.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...k-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait
This is a trait of most criminals, and those people who support criminals.
Last edited:
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
nah, deliberately obtuse.
OC for ME
Regular Member
+1. It could be very much worse.
Folks who live in N. STL City may have a perspective that differs from yours.
utbagpiper
Banned
I'm certainly open to objective evidence that the government of the USA, the several States, or a particular city is materially more oppressive in ways that are actually affecting people's interactions with the police, than it said government was 20 or so years ago.
We seem to have less tolerance for smoking in public places than we had 20 or 40 years ago. We are less tolerant of DUI than in the 60s and 70s. NYC tried to impose a size limit on soft drinks but had that tossed by the courts. We have this recent death in NYC from a guy selling bootleg cigarettes but it appears to me the death was the result not of selling cigs but of resisting arrest. Even if it was caused by a high cig tax or other cig law, it seems a rare case.
What am I not seeing that I should be in terms of government being dramatically more oppressive toward inner city residents than it was 10 years ago, or 20, 30, 50, or more years ago. Give me some examples.
Most of the increases in government power have been aimed at middle-class, suburban and rural folks who happen to hold any kind of traditional or conservative religious beliefs or even any hint of libertarian "leave me alone" social beliefs. I don't see these groups rioting, killing cops, etc.
At this point it appears to the me the problem has less to do with government oppression of inner city residents and something to do with increased violence of inner city residents. Or maybe not. Maybe it is merely a difference in news coverage. It isn't like we don't have about a 50 year history of various cities being burned to the ground by their residents.
Anyway, I await some examples of government oppression over the last few years.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
I certainly welcome specific examples of what you think are the oppressions greater than have been present for the last 50 to 100 years or more.
I'm always willing to learn something new.
It seems cops are more willing than in the past to use military tactics against private home were illegal, recreational drug use is suspected. Or, perhaps more accurately, more willing to use such tactics in middle-class suburban areas than they used to. I was living in the Boston area some 20 years ago when the cops kicked in the door of a retired black minister in a lower rent area based on a bad tip from someone they had popped for possession. The minister was clean, and the cops didn't shoot him. But the heart attack induced from the rough handling was no less fatal. These days, middle class whites can get similar treatment from the SWAT teams. But I don't see such groups as being the ones killing cops.
So enlighten me.
Charles
Here's a USA Today article that touches on a few numbers. and the opinions of a few criminologists:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/11/police-killings-hundreds/18818663/
"The new 2013 total of justifiable killings represents the third consecutive increase in the annual toll. Criminal justice analysts said the inherent limitations of the database — the killings are self-reported by law enforcement, and not all police agencies participate in the annual counts — continue to frustrate efforts to identify the universe of lethal force incidents involving police."
Also here's a less gentle perspective from 2013:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/americans-killed-cops-outnumber-americans-killed-iraq-war/
"The increase in police brutality in this country is a frightening reality. In the last decade alone the number of people murdered by police has reached 5,000. The number of soldiers killed since the inception of the Iraq war, 4489."
I'm not going to argue that there's any underlying tinfoil hat reason behind any of this, but it's really hard for me to accept that there are just a few jerk cops in every department, and that all of the other things that have fallen into place to bring us to where we are just happened by chance. I'm also not a big believer in this being primarily a race issue. I think being anti-establishment is part of being an American. There are dichotomies within our system - liberal/conservative, statist/anti-statist, capitalist/communist or socialist, and so on. I believe the police violence has served to unite black and white because it affects all of our civil rights. It's no longer a race war it's class warfare, although for a lot of racists it's an excuse to release that inner demon under the guise of "siding with the law."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/11/police-killings-hundreds/18818663/
"The new 2013 total of justifiable killings represents the third consecutive increase in the annual toll. Criminal justice analysts said the inherent limitations of the database — the killings are self-reported by law enforcement, and not all police agencies participate in the annual counts — continue to frustrate efforts to identify the universe of lethal force incidents involving police."
Also here's a less gentle perspective from 2013:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/americans-killed-cops-outnumber-americans-killed-iraq-war/
"The increase in police brutality in this country is a frightening reality. In the last decade alone the number of people murdered by police has reached 5,000. The number of soldiers killed since the inception of the Iraq war, 4489."
I'm not going to argue that there's any underlying tinfoil hat reason behind any of this, but it's really hard for me to accept that there are just a few jerk cops in every department, and that all of the other things that have fallen into place to bring us to where we are just happened by chance. I'm also not a big believer in this being primarily a race issue. I think being anti-establishment is part of being an American. There are dichotomies within our system - liberal/conservative, statist/anti-statist, capitalist/communist or socialist, and so on. I believe the police violence has served to unite black and white because it affects all of our civil rights. It's no longer a race war it's class warfare, although for a lot of racists it's an excuse to release that inner demon under the guise of "siding with the law."
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
civil asset forfeiture
near suspension of the 4th for 100 miles inland of the border
outrageous corruption of LEO (google "malheur activist fbi" for a fun read of corruption)
first amendment zones
Our most basic rights are under extreme attack. The only way not to see it is to close your eyes
utbagpiper
Banned
Ok, this is useful information, thank you.
From the first article and the graph in it, it appears that justifiable homicides by police have ranged between about 300 and 450 annually over the last two decades. Nor has this been a steady rise. Instead, today's numbers look about the same as during the early 90s, which then saw a decrease to the low in late 90s.
I think the data on increases in SWAT teams and the use of dynamic entries gells with what a lot of us have seen. But as I noted, this appears to be an increase in such tactics in suburban and rural areas. I think urban areas have always been subjected to this kind of thing. Indeed, I recall attending a Soldier of Fortune show in Vegas about 25 years ago and talking to a vendor who specialized in armor plating fire trucks and ambulances because in inner city areas any vehicle with lights and a siren was subject to getting shot at as it drove down the streets. Inner city police departments have always used (had to use they might argue) more military style tactics than had been previously used in less urban areas. Those of us living in suburban or rural areas have seen this increase in military style tactics in our areas and against our neighbors and it rightly concerns us. But we're not the ones rioting or killing cops. And I really doubt those who are doing that are doing it because they think some middle-class suburbanites are being mistreated.
So back to the number of police killings. If we assume that 1% of the population is responsible for most violent crime, we're talking about 3 million violent criminals. Out of that population, the difference between 300 police shootings a year and 467 a year doesn't strike me as statistically meaningfully. Maybe I'm wrong.
More to the point, do the police killings represent an increased oppression? Or a decrease in police training and ability to resolve things peacefully? Are criminals more likely to get violent for some reason? I recall that Cali's old "three strikes" law had the unintended effect of having some low level criminals getting really violent because on the third arrest they were going away for life and figured they had nothing to lose so better to put up a fight and see if they could escape. Anything similar nationwide with longer sentences? I don't know.
My point is that rather than just repeating slogans, we ought to look carefully at data. You've presented some solid data and I appreciate that. I'm not sure what it actually means for those who are the ones rioting and murdering cops.
I certainly don't like the increase in military style tactics (or even equipment) and mindset in my area. I think it overkill (no pun intended) for most cases where it is used including both low level drug offenses and suicidal persons who lock themselves alone in their homes.
I'm just trying to find that objective data that the police are being more oppressive--especially toward inner-city residents--than they have in the past.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
Can you provide data that this is worse than it was, say 40 years ago? I suspect it is, but I'd like to see data. And I'd like to see how it affects the mostly poor (read lack of assets to seize) residents of inner cities. This strikes me as an area where suburban, middle-class residents are getting a taste of what poor inner city residents have always been subjected to.
This is of legitimate concern to those of us who have not previously been likely to be victims of this, but hardly a reason for those who have always been subjected to it to riot or murder now, as opposed to 10 years ago.
Again, a real concern that has zero effect on inner city residents of the greater LA, Chicago, Detroit, or Ferguson areas. I don't see riots and cops getting murdered by "fed up citizens" in the American Southwest. The closest we've come was the Clive Bundy incident in Nevada. A couple of loose nuts that Bundy tossed off his ranch went on to murder a couple of cops and the media did their best to tie it to Bundy. More likely, a couple of folks looking for an opportunity to shoot cops went to the Bundy ranch, were uninvited, and then found random victims. I doubt anyone in the heartland is rioting over what happens with border policies or land use in the Southwest.
Again, how many of the rioters or those murdering cops care a bit about fast and furious or other such activities aimed at the middle class suburban and rural population?
Very annoying, but hardly a new creation. Remember, prior to the 20th century, the 1st amendment was far more limited in scope than it is today. Most 1st amendment zones happen at college campuses and around major events by high profile politicians. How many rioters and cop killers are attending these events and getting upset?
A basic understanding of history would make clear that most of these basic rights have been greatly expanded in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Most of the worst infringements we can point to still show more respect for these rights than may have been common prior to 1960 even for the general population and most decidedly for inner city blacks.
Let's cut to the chase, is the respect for the rights of black citizens today better or worse than it was during the Jim Crow south and de facto segregation of the north prior to the 1960s? Are black men more or less likely to get a fair trial today than in 1955?
I'm not saying things are peaches and roses. Indeed, there is evidence things are getting worse for the middle-class white population in certain regards.
But what can you point to that actually matters enough to inner city, poor residents to motivate them to riot and murder? What is different or worse today for them than 10 years ago? Or 20, 30 or 50 years ago?
I can't find it. And so I think blaming "oppression" from the cops / government is the wrong diagnosis.
I think that diagnosis explains Clive Bundy. In the last 20 years the feds have shut down most of his neighbors' ranching operations. He is facing loss of his livelihood and culture. Without arguing whether he is in the right or the wrong, I see motivation to take up arms and say, "No."
If we see conservative Christians start getting violent over their kids being taught in school that homosexual conduct is the legal and moral equivalent as conjugal marriage, or being forced to provide services to homosexual "weddings", or being forced to pay for abortions we could blame "oppressive" government laws.
Gun owners haven't had things so good, legally, since at least the Gun Control Act of '68, and for racial minorities, they've NEVER had better legal respect for their rights to defend themselves; though admittedly, many minorities remain in inner cities subject to laws that remain the least respectful of their rights.
So what is it that is motivating the rioters and murderers? Increased coverage? Increased stoking of racial flames? Increased sense of entitlement? Loss of semi-skilled jobs? General social breakdown from 75% unwed birthrates?
I don't know. But I haven't yet seen any data to convince me this has anything to do with new or worsening "government oppression" against those who are actually rioting and murdering right now. And that is where my original comment came from. I understand what is frustrating and alarming those of us in the middle class suburbs and rural areas. I'm not convinced those same concerns are shared by inner city poor residents.
Charles
state hater
Banned
davidmcbeth
Banned
Oklahoma City bombing? OK is south-central technically but I always considered it south-west (west of Miss. river) .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma
Or Waco?
Last edited: