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Thread: our society's disgusting views on the value of life

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    Thumbs down our society's disgusting views on the value of life

    If you're not a cop, or other member of the ruling class, then your life is seen as next to worthless. If a cop murders you, the local police department will act as if it's no big deal, and refuse to have a funeral parade for you. On the other hand, if a cop is killed, then he or she will get a massive parade - often taken along a ridiculously circuitous route that snarls traffic - regardless of how rude, mean, cruel, and downright evil that person was. In some states, one of the few ways to be sentenced to death is to kill a cop, as if they are so much more important than the rest of us.

    Why was there no parade for Kelly Thomas? Why was there very little grief on his behalf?

    Why are there parades and outpourings of grief when someone who may very well have been an atrocious, sadistic bully is killed, just because he or she was a cop?

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    Pfft! There are about a million United States abortions per year, 50 million since 1973. ( "Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States". Guttmacher Institute. July 2013. Retrieved 2013-08-08.)

    What's that old saw about how we treat the least of US?
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-23-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Police work is not even in the ten top most dangerous professions. And most of the ones that are provide much more services to us in our lives.

    I have never had a police officer directly save my life, FOUR times my life has been saved by doctors and nurses. If anybody not in the top ten deserves our admiration it is doctors and nurses.
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    There are segments of society that still recognize a couple of important things some would like to ignore or obfuscate:

    1-While other professions are more dangerous than being a cop, in very few of them do the risks come from someone wanting to kill you simply because of the profession. Logging, deep sea fishing, coal mining, and other professions are inherently dangerous. The danger doesn't come from someone walking up to your car and shooting you simply because you are coal miner. (The deliberate sabotage of equipment or spiking of trees by eco-terrorists that presents direct danger to the lives of loggers, minder, drillers, etc, are, thankfully, a fairly rare exception.)

    2-Deliberate violence against the police is not merely a violation of a cop's individual rights, but is also an assault upon the power and authority of the state. It is assault on civil society. I know there are those for whom the words "power and authority of the state" create an immediate and powerful negative emotional reaction. Such words are often associated with oppression. But they are also essential to having a functioning court system that can peacefully resolve contract disputes. They are essential to a system that recognizes and protects individual property ownership (real, intellectual, etc) from infringement. It is the power and authority of the state that allows government to bring criminals to justice (or at least impose punishment) after they have violated the rights of their fellows.

    Our society and government are not perfect. But they are far preferable to others of which I am aware as I evidence by my voting with my feet to live where I do. I could live just about anywhere in the world. I was blessed to be born in the USA, and I choose to remain here. I am both free and fully capable of living elsewhere. I choose to live here.

    More to the point, imperfect as our government is, I've yet to see any proposed alternative that provides better results. I'd like to see an increase in federalism, of increased diversity of culture among the several States. But in terms of basic forms? What is the alternative to a neutral, third party police force to investigate allegations of criminal conduct, to gather evidence, and bring the accused to the court? Lynch mobs and vigilante "justice" are not far more problematic.

    Indeed, many argue that the police are targeted specifically because they represent the authority of the state, which authority some claim to be getting ever more oppressive. Yet these same folks then turn around and claim that the murder of a cop is fundamentally no different than the murder of a private citizen? I see a certain logical disconnect.

    Not ever murder of someone who happens to be a police officer is because he is a cop. But certainly some murders or assaults on police take place precisely because of the badge. The attacks have nothing to do with the person behind the badge, nor any personal grudge against him/her. Some attacks against police take place precisely as attacks against society, against the rules of society.

    It is one thing to have honest and good faith disagreement with some laws or rules. It is quite another to show the slightest sympathy toward directed attacks against our government. Defense against an imminent threat even from agents of the government is one thing. Premeditated attacks on the government generally is quite another.

    Charles

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Last time I checked dead is dead, accidental death and homicide have the same outcome.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    Indeed, many argue that the police are targeted specifically because they represent the authority of the state, which authority some claim to be getting ever more oppressive. Yet these same folks then turn around and claim that the murder of a cop is fundamentally no different than the murder of a private citizen? I see a certain logical disconnect.
    I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

    Not ever murder of someone who happens to be a police officer is because he is a cop. But certainly some murders or assaults on police take place precisely because of the badge. The attacks have nothing to do with the person behind the badge, nor any personal grudge against him/her. Some attacks against police take place precisely as attacks against society, against the rules of society.
    Not necessarily. I can imagine quite a number of reasons for such an attack.

    ...federalism...
    Federalism is another idea that seems quite nice, but can produce centralization of power concentrated within a "ruling class."
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    You have made a fair point I believe. I remember at some point in my life learning there was specific crimes for killing government people. I didn't understand it at the time because there is already a crime for killing people... why do you need a crime for killing government people specifically? Of course as I grew out of my naivete I learned about controlling the population. The job the police have is a difficult one. Protecting and serving the few people in power at the cost of such a vast majority takes a lot of muscle and a special mindset. You can't expect them to be treated equal to (scoff) civilians when they have this kind of burden to bare. This is why in the absurdly rare instances when an officer's brutal injustices can't be covered up or dismissed outright the punishments for them are highly suppressed in comparison to comparable crimes of civilians.
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    The killing of a private as very little over all effect on the battle the higher up the chain of command the person killed is the bigger the effect.

    Focusing on privates doesn't accomplish as much as taking out the leadership.

    Front line troops are a easier target for sure but their killing has the less effect.


    Basically the same with elections replacing antigun local officials is nice and a bit easier but replacing an antigun senator can accomplish more.
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    The Nazis simply did a run around of murder when killing the Jews ... they simply classified them as not being persons.

    Oh, this can't happen here ... I'm sure many pre-Nazi Germans had the same opinion.

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    [QUOTE=The Truth;2116748]
    I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

    I pointing out the irony, or disconnect in some arguments I've seen made here.

    When one argues that cops are being shot because of government oppression, that someone is implicitly admitting that police officers represent the government. They are being shot--in such cases--not because the assailant is personally upset at them, but precisely because of what they represent: they are the embodiment or government/social authority and power.

    For anyone who so argues to then turn around and claim that a life is a life and a cop's life is no different than any other life is to ignore that the cop represents government/social authority and power. It is a logical disconnect.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Not necessarily. I can imagine quite a number of reasons for such an attack.
    I accounted for this. It is entirely possible for a cop (or a governor or any other government official) to be the victim of a crime for reasons entirely unrelated to his office or position. But when a government official is targeted because he is a government official, the violation of rights extends beyond the individual and attacks the state/government/society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Federalism is another idea that seems quite nice, but can produce centralization of power concentrated within a "ruling class."
    I'm open to hearing about alternatives. I prefer a central government strong in certain, limited functions (national defense, maintaining an honest money supply, guaranteeing certain basic rights) and proscribed from any action at all in other areas (local zoning, local speed limits, etc).

    All powers not delegated to the central government, nor explicitly prohibited to the States, should be exercised by the States. Socialized health care, rent control, zoning to protect historic districts? I find all offensive, but I don't think any are a federal concern. I'll fight them in my State but not care a whit if some other State wants to implement them. Ditto for which math or sex ed curriculum get used. Within limits of not infringing basic rights with racial segregation, I don't care much how NY or Cali run their schools so long as my State can run our schools as our citizens/residents see fit. I'm no longer and not yet a fan drug legalization. I don't want to see it in my State. But I'm supportive of other States' proper power to legalize pot. I'll watch their experience and see if my view changes. Ditto for gambling, prostitution, and a host of other social matters.

    I think one of our challenges as a nation is that every issue has become a federal matter which forces a one-size-fits-all on a very large, very diverse nation. By total area, we are the 3rd largest nation in the world among over 240 nations listed. We are also the 3rd largest by population behind China and India. We are widely diverse in terms of race/ethnicity (watch the Olympic teams of various nations entering the stadiums during opening ceremonies as one simple testament of this), religious views, and overall culture. New England has a very different culture than the Deep South which are different than the Midwest farmlands which differ from the Intermountain West which differ from the mid-atlantic and left-coast regions. We'd be far better off with more local diversity of laws and culture and a lot less control from the federal levels.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The Nazis simply did a run around of murder when killing the Jews ... they simply classified them as not being persons.

    Oh, this can't happen here ... I'm sure many pre-Nazi Germans had the same opinion.
    We've done the same thing here. Our courts have simply classified unborn babies as not being persons and so elective abortion on demand is legal.

    On the flip side, we see growing efforts to bestow human rights on animals generally and pets specifically. More and more a pet is not a piece of property that an owner may humanely dispose of when he sees fit. Instead, I'm seeing more cases of any killing of a pet being considered animal abuse.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    We've done the same thing here. Our courts have simply classified unborn babies as not being persons and so elective abortion on demand is legal.

    On the flip side, we see growing efforts to bestow human rights on animals generally and pets specifically. More and more a pet is not a piece of property that an owner may humanely dispose of when he sees fit. Instead, I'm seeing more cases of any killing of a pet being considered animal abuse.

    Charles
    Correct ! Yet when I explain the the unborn are members of our species from a scientific standpoint, folks who support abortion just run away.

    Value of a human: zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Last time I checked dead is dead, accidental death and homicide have the same outcome.
    Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand except tangentially.

    Our laws have long recognized the difference between accidents and deliberate conduct. Indeed, our laws differentiate between premeditated murder, murder in the heat of the moment, negligent homicide, and truly accidental conduct that results in a death. In at least some jurisdictions there are distinctions made within some of those categories as well.

    This seems eminently just to me. The driver of a car doing everything correct who loses control when a properly maintained tire blows out has not engaged in the same conduct as a driver who deliberately drives onto a sidewalk and runs down pedestrians, even though the end result may be identical.

    Those who target agents of the government/society because they are agents are not merely violating individual rights. They are attacking society as a whole.

    Have I failed to clearly explain this concept? Or do you simply find the principle personally disagreeable for some reason?

    Charles

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand except tangentially.

    Our laws have long recognized the difference between accidents and deliberate conduct. Indeed, our laws differentiate between premeditated murder, murder in the heat of the moment, negligent homicide, and truly accidental conduct that results in a death. In at least some jurisdictions there are distinctions made within some of those categories as well.

    This seems eminently just to me. The driver of a car doing everything correct who loses control when a properly maintained tire blows out has not engaged in the same conduct as a driver who deliberately drives onto a sidewalk and runs down pedestrians, even though the end result may be identical.

    Those who target agents of the government/society because they are agents are not merely violating individual rights. They are attacking society as a whole.

    Have I failed to clearly explain this concept? Or do you simply find the principle personally disagreeable for some reason?

    Charles
    That's a lot like communism to me.
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    State agents with delegated powers in addition to rights are indeed elites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    State agents with delegated powers in addition to rights are indeed elites.
    IMO what he is stating is that Government agents lives are more important that the lives of the people. I find that statist, and very much like communism where the people serve the state.

    1dead
    adjective \ˈded\

    : no longer alive or living : no longer having life

    alive
    adjective \ə-ˈlīv\

    : having life : living : not dead

    Every person that risks there lives in dangerous jobs provides a valuable service, far more than police, and more dangerous than police. Yet you continue to urinate on them.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-23-2014 at 07:00 PM.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The Nazis simply did a run around of murder when killing the Jews ... they simply classified them as not being persons.

    Oh, this can't happen here ... I'm sure many pre-Nazi Germans had the same opinion.
    Wow, it didn't take you long to apply Godwin's Law ... one of the last refuges of those who lack any further rational discourse...
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Protecting and serving the few people in power at the cost of such a vast majority takes a lot of muscle and a special mindset. You can't expect them to be treated equal to (scoff) civilians when they have this kind of burden to bare.
    Very Howard Zinn of you.

    I think you're right, though. Of course, I also think very few cops (and hell, for that matter few of the elites) are able to see this particular forest for its trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YappingSchnauzer View Post
    That's a lot like communism to me.
    I guess some see a red behind every tree.

    Charles

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I guess some see a red behind every tree.

    Charles
    Only see red from statists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Every person that risks there lives in dangerous jobs provides a valuable service, far more than police, and more dangerous than police. Yet you continue to urinate on them.
    Very...."creative" reading of my posts. I've said nothing of those in dangerous jobs except to note that the danger is inherent in the job. With very rare exception, they are not targeted for criminal violence because of the job.

    That stands in contrast with those who job it is to be the force of society in maintaining law and order against the scum who would take at their will.

    Shoot a guy who happens to be cop over a disagreement in a bar, and it is "just" a murder. But when someone targets cops because they are cops and presumable for no other reason than that they are cops, that someone is attacking society itself. It is an assault both upon the individual officer and upon the office he holds and the society that created that office.

    Some seem to think they are Rambo and have no need of government or police. Most sensible people recognize the value of government, of police, courts, and laws.

    Charles

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    The idea that an attack on a cop is an attack on society itself is...a little bit statist...
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Cops are only shot about 50 per 800,000 per year. Cops commit sexual assault over 300 times a year. In fact by CATO institute police per 100,000 are over double the sexual assault rates of the general population. This is only a small percentage of cops, but stats are stats. Nobody should be held up as special over the any other person "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" is absolutely insane and statist. Dead is dead, if a person gives their life providing service to the public it is no less than anybody else, claiming it is nothing more than hero worship.

    Besides it being the same carp the anti's put out. "Only police should have guns" "Gun deaths are more deadly than other deaths" nothing but pure emotional BS.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 12-23-2014 at 08:55 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Wow, it didn't take you long to apply Godwin's Law ... one of the last refuges of those who lack any further rational discourse...
    Hahaha you make me laugh. The original law though was limited to just Hitler...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Hahaha you make me laugh. The original law though was limited to just Hitler...
    Not so it would seem.

    Godwin's law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

    And this from the originator: .........the labeling of posters or their ideas as "similar to the Nazis" or "Hitler-like" was a recurrent and often predictable event.
    http://archive.wired.com/wired/archi...godwin.if.html
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