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Thread: A clean shoot?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Strike's Avatar
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    A clean shoot?

    This video has been circulating recently and got me thinking about at which point I may have had to protect myself from imminent danger. Especially with my wife or child in the car.



    What would you have done?

  2. #2
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Intense~~any idea of the nut case in the truck was arrested?
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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Pretty scary, the truck obviously intentionally hit the person after chasing them at different speeds and across different lanes, then the person got out of the truck and came at them. Not sure what other factors are involved by it certainly looks like their lives could have been in danger.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Strike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Intense~~any idea of the nut case in the truck was arrested?
    Yes, sorry. The woman was arrested.

    http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...n-i80/30361644

  5. #5
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    What a nut case! And who smiles while having their mug shot taken...LOL
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    This is a perfect example of why we are armed at all times.

    Being armed, my response may have been different, but one has to be able to justify that their life is in immediate danger to fire your weapon. (yes, being rammed by a large pickup would probably count )

    It looked to me like both her hands were clear when she exited her vehicle, but my gun would have been on her, and I would have likely been out of my car pretty damn fast to take the action away from my family. Utilizing cover is a basic tenant of armed confrontations, but taking the action away from my family would be paramount.

    But I am very experienced with dealing with some pretty crazy people.
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Pit maneuver, drive off, call the cops and video the whole thing like they did. Had she gotten me stopped like that after hitting me with her car purposefully, I would have driven off as soon as possible. Had she made it out of the car like she did, I'd have been out of the car at the low ready no question.

    Stuff like this makes me wonder if the perp had some sort of psychotic or other mental disorder. Scary to think there are people out there like that.

  8. #8
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    First of all, one should avoid "rude hand gestures to others." No, getting flipped off doesn't justify physical assault with a truck. But de-escalation and avoiding a confrontation is way better than needlessly risking injury over pride. The cost to repair the car, and hassle of doing it even if insurance covers the dollar cost is way more than a the "cost" of refraining from giving the one finger salute (I assume this is what is meant by "rude hand gesture"). The proper response to being talegated is to move right and let the vehicle pass and be on its way.

    I hope the victims rethink their willingness in the future to flip the bird to other drivers. You can't predict who is nuts and there is no benefit to be gained by throwing around insulting gestures. An armed society is polite yada yada....

    Assuming that de-escalation doesn't work, there isn't a lot of time in this encounter when I think shooting would be the prudent thing to do. Certainly once the driver exits her truck, is a woman (rather than a 300 pound man) and is not visibly armed, I'd hate to have to defend my use of a gun at that point. In hand, ready? Yes. But I think driving away the better course. I might have considered backing down the emergency lane. I can back faster than most can run and the more distance between her and her truck when I go forward again, the less chance she can catch up to me again.

    At the point the truck driver forces them off the road and especially when she hits their car, deadly force would seem to be legally justified, but I wonder how effective at ending the attack in this case. Pretty tough to actually neutralize the threat and as noted, the truck driver is nuts. So no guarantee she'd respond rationally to the presence of a gun. A couple of shots into the radiator as they drove away after being forced off the road would be eminently satisfying, might actually end or at least limit the attack, and in theory should be fully justified. But this was Cali so who knows.

    So long as the car is mobile, it provides the greatest protection from the truck and ability to escape the situation. I'd not leave the car unless it was disabled or otherwise unable to move. In that case, the ability to move freely has advantages over being strapped into a seat.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 12-23-2014 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    What bugs me is she claimed to be a cop, this has happened in our state before, women stopped by fake cops. I would never stop for anything that was not a marked patrol car. At most drive slowly to the police station if it is a unmarked, possibly police car. But even then 10 years ago a state police officer was stopping and raping women, he eventually got caught, at that time NC troopers did not have dash cams.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Those is the behaviors of a psychopath.

    There's no messing around when it comes to my family.

    Think of it this way. Say you try to outrun the assailant instead of stopping the threat and the assailant gets one last police spin maneuver in on you. Your car flips down an embankment and you're either dead or permanently injured. It's not worth it to try and outrun the assailant if you have a firearm handy. When the violent felony is committed it's you or them in a state that has no duty to retreat.
    Last edited by The Truth; 12-27-2014 at 05:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Think of it this way. Say you try to outrun the assailant instead of stopping the threat and the assailant gets one last police spin maneuver in on you. Your car flips down an embankment and you're either dead or permanently injured. It's not worth it to try and outrun the assailant if you have a firearm handy. When the violent felony is committed it's you or them in a state that has no duty to retreat.
    This is a very good point and something I considered. I'd certainly avoid anything high speed.

    But I intend to avoid deadly force whenever and for as long as possible. Heaven help you if the nutcase turns out to be a member of a politically favored category and you are not. George Zimmerman was acquitted. Still very costly. The grand jury declined to indict officer Wilson. Still very costly.

    Shooting an "unarmed" (I hate that term as it implies "not dangerous") crazy woman as she advances on me (as a male) has a lot of potential for really unpleasant legal costs. Trying to resist her with my bare hands has significant risks that I don't care to incur. I'm not batman or a cop and I don't carry a belt full of less-than-lethal options around everywhere.

    Disabling the truck and driving away may be a better option than shooting the nutcase.

    Charles

  12. #12
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Running at high speed can get you or someone else killed in any number of ways. Call the cops and exit as soon as possible and stop somewhere you can't get trapped, if the aggressor follows and gets out of their vehicle, as long as no weapon is visible let them get close then drive off, repeat as many times as necessary. Yes my sidearm would be ready for any sign of the aggressor being armed and the window would be down.

    I drive a Ford F350, dully 4X4, so someone forcing me off the road is unlikely, if I pull off the road and am approached on foot, that someone would be a minor speed bump.

  13. #13
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    Pit maneuver, drive off, call the cops and video the whole thing like they did. Had she gotten me stopped like that after hitting me with her car purposefully, I would have driven off as soon as possible. Had she made it out of the car like she did, I'd have been out of the car at the low ready no question.

    Stuff like this makes me wonder if the perp had some sort of psychotic or other mental disorder. Scary to think there are people out there like that.
    IMHO I disagree. In this situation I would pull over and stop the vehicle. The victim broke several traffic laws in panic.
    Pull over. make the call. prepare to defend. Do not do anything to escalate.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I hope the victims rethink their willingness in the future to flip the bird to other drivers.
    lol you just can't keep from laying some blame on the true victim.
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    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    IMHO I disagree. In this situation I would pull over and stop the vehicle. The victim broke several traffic laws in panic.
    Pull over. make the call. prepare to defend. Do not do anything to escalate.



    lol you just can't keep from laying some blame on the true victim.
    I guess I should expound.

    I'm proficient enough with a vehicle to properly execute a pit maneuver, and likely do it with no risk of harm to any party. I'd rather that than have to defend myself on the side of the road with any gun. Once I feel my safety or my families safety is at stake, I'm ok with breaking a few traffic laws to end the situation as safely as possible.

    That being said, it's easy for me to armchair qb this thing. I definitely can see the wisdom in doing it the way you say.

  15. #15
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    I guess I should expound.

    I'm proficient enough with a vehicle to properly execute a pit maneuver, and likely do it with no risk of harm to any party. I'd rather that than have to defend myself on the side of the road with any gun. Once I feel my safety or my families safety is at stake, I'm ok with breaking a few traffic laws to end the situation as safely as possible.

    That being said, it's easy for me to armchair qb this thing. I definitely can see the wisdom in doing it the way you say.
    and you also just left the scene of an accident. IMHO the best thing to do is pull over a safe distance from traffic, make the dreaded call, stay in vehicle, defend life..
    I honestly do appreciate your wanting to drive away from the danger but you just broke the law leaving the scene. As 100% obvious your decision seems....prepare to defend your illegal actions.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    and you also just left the scene of an accident. IMHO the best thing to do is pull over a safe distance from traffic, make the dreaded call, stay in vehicle, defend life..
    I honestly do appreciate your wanting to drive away from the danger but you just broke the law leaving the scene. As 100% obvious your decision seems....prepare to defend your illegal actions.
    Totally agree. In calling the cops, it is many times not an illegal action to call and tell them you left as to care for your sefety. But in the end, I'd rather defend myself against the possible charge than have to defend myself with a gun. I'll do it, every time. But if I don't have to draw I'll look for any other alternative.

    I suppose it's probably 6's, tbh. Either way would have been better than being unarmed and unprepared.

  17. #17
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    Totally agree. In calling the cops, it is many times not an illegal action to call and tell them you left as to care for your sefety. But in the end, I'd rather defend myself against the possible charge than have to defend myself with a gun. I'll do it, every time. But if I don't have to draw I'll look for any other alternative.

    I suppose it's probably 6's, tbh. Either way would have been better than being unarmed and unprepared.
    +1 It's a crappy situation. I only speak for myself. In an adrenaline fueled situation like this I prefer to stop and wait. I know my limits. I would hate to do something rash and pull into another car or something. But I definitely don't blame anyone for running. For me I would stop and call. If the offender decides to attack be ready to defend.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Watched the vid. The passenger was on the phone with 911 dispatcher at the time the vehicle was hit, even informed the dispatcher of the hit. The dispatcher told them to drive away and go to the waiting officer.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Happened in CA, not allowed to have evil guns loaded with those pesky pew pew things.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    Watched the vid. The passenger was on the phone with 911 dispatcher at the time the vehicle was hit, even informed the dispatcher of the hit. The dispatcher told them to drive away and go to the waiting officer.
    I have to say for an untrained individual the passenger did an outstanding job at keeping the driver from completely losing it while handling communications. I find it interesting that replies on youtube were very insulting.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike View Post
    Yes, sorry. The woman was arrested.
    For the SECOND time in less than ten days.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlGutshotWilly View Post
    This is a perfect example of why we are armed at all times.
    I would have likely been out of my car pretty damn fast to take the action away from my family. Utilizing cover is a basic tenant of armed confrontations, but taking the action away from my family would be paramount.
    Exactly. Altho my Sweet Baboo would also be armed and would provide practised backup
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    lol you just can't keep from laying some blame on the true victim.
    Let me help out your reading comprehension a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper

    ...getting flipped off doesn't justify physical assault with a truck....
    Was that really so hard to read and understand the first time?

    How is pointing out that we are prudent to avoid needless confrontation and/or escalation any different than questioning whether or at what point the use of a firearm, a pit maneuver, or anything else different than what the victim did?

    Is an armed society a polite society? Or is carrying a gun an excuse to be a jerk because we know we can defend ourselves if the person we insult happens to a nutcase?

    I prefer to avoid and de-escalate potentially violent situations whenever possible rather than having to figure out how best to survive after I've helped create a dangerous situation.

    Do you think it is prudent to go around flipping off other drivers?

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 12-24-2014 at 02:16 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Shooting an "unarmed" (I hate that term as it implies "not dangerous") crazy woman as she advances on me (as a male) has a lot of potential for really unpleasant legal costs. Trying to resist her with my bare hands has significant risks that I don't care to incur. I'm not batman or a cop and I don't carry a belt full of less-than-lethal options around everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Happened in CA, not allowed to have evil guns loaded with those pesky pew pew things.
    This is why I carry a tactical flashlight. Even in daylight it's REALLY hard to attack someone who is shining a 1000 lumen strobe in your eyes, and all but impossible at night.

    Gives me options other than deadly force, no risk of the backblast of a chemical spray, lacks the accuracy problems of a TASER and works even in places that try to forbid self-defense by banning the most effective tools to do so.

    If worse comes to worst, I still have my gun. Thank the Lord I live in Washington.

  24. #24
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Let me help out your reading comprehension a bit.



    Was that really so hard to read and understand the first time?

    How is pointing out that we are prudent to avoid needless confrontation and/or escalation any different than questioning whether or at what point the use of a firearm, a pit maneuver, or anything else different than what the victim did?

    Is an armed society a polite society? Or is carrying a gun an excuse to be a jerk because we know we can defend ourselves if the person we insult happens to a nutcase?

    I prefer to avoid and de-escalate potentially violent situations whenever possible rather than having to figure out how best to survive after I've helped create a dangerous situation.

    Do you think it is prudent to go around flipping off other drivers?

    Charles
    Here, let me help your reading comprehension a bit, since you don't seem to understand how you're statements are coming across or what you're actually saying. The statement I have emboldened above is an insinuation that the true victim is actually the perpetrator of a crime and in your eyes should expect some kind of harsh reaction for simply flipping the bird. Sorry, but if you can't handle being told to f#$% off without reacting violently or ramming someone's car off the road, YOU have some serious anger/behavioral issues. This has nothing to do with carrying a gun.

    You also say explicitly that "after I've helped create a dangerous situation." This implies that you believe the girls helped to create the situation they were so unfortunately stuck in. I don't think I've read anything incorrectly, I think your logic is flawed. I understand what you are saying and why you would want to preach such things, but it's just false. The law agrees. The woman was charged with assault with a deadly weapon despite the fact that the girls "created the situation" by flipping the bird. Sorry, it's just not true.

    I'm not sure where the "is a gun an excuse to be a jerk" question comes from either. Do I go out looking for fights or yelling at people/flipping people off all day every day hoping for a confrontation? Absolutely not, but if I get a little mad at a driver for breaking a traffic law or endangering me by breaking a traffic law there is a possibility I will communicate such anger with my middle finger. Does this mean I have invited an attack? Absolutely not. Flip me the bird right back and move about your day. Don't try to ram me off the road because I exercised my right to free speech. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal to flip someone off. It's not an assault.

    Would everyone be much better off without flipping the bird? Sure! But guess what? People have emotions and $hit happens. That doesn't warrant a violent reaction, and you cannot seriously expect anyone to agree with you that these girls had it coming to them to be assaulted with a deadly weapon for getting frustrated and flipping the bird.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I've been looking at the video a couple of times a day for three days. I still have not seen a single moment when I would consider the use of deadly force because I do not see imminent threat of death or great bodily injury. Maybe some of tje rest of you can tell me what/where you saw what you considered an imminent threat.

    The hit from behind comes close but based on the totality of the situation it does not appear to me, and did not seem to appear to either the driver or passenger, that it was "life threatening".

    When the pickup driver got out and approached the car there was more than enough room to get away, which the driver finally did.

    I understand how threads drift (I've been known to veer off the main topic myself) but all of the "Let me change the scenario and then tell you how I would justify shooting my way out" I can only say that this thread has not only gone sideways it has plowed right through a crowd of common sense and smashed up an entire sanity store.

    stay safe.
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