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Thread: Defense against aggressive animals

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    Defense against aggressive animals

    So I've been mulling it over and I've done some searches with no results, but when do yall think you'd be justified in using a firearm against an aggressive animal (specifically dogs) and have you seen anything in ORS pertaining to this? I've searched the forum and haven't been able to find anything, so I apologize if it's been brought up before. The topic of defense typically pertains to two legged predators and occasionally a wild animal. Thoughts?

    Blaine

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    Men and beasts are in no way equivalent. Beasts may be property but have no rights. Compare and contrast a dog and a snake killed. The beasts are nearly equivalent to each other but far removed from man.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Animals and people are not treated the same in the law, BUT that does not mean you will not lose your firearm even if you are clearly justified. In most cases I try pepper spray first if it is anything under 100 pounds.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    A better question is, what about in defense of property?

    Obviously, an animal is (at best) property, and so always comes second to human life.

    But what about other property? Obviously, the law would generally favor someone who shot an animal in the process of destroying his property.

    But it gets sticky, still. What about pets? What if some guy's dog is attacking my dog (no, I don't have a dog)? Obviously, if my dog is viewed as part of my family I'm going to want to defend him. On the other hand, legally he's property, and using lethal force against someone's else pet in defense of my property is likely going to be unpleasant.

    Granted, this is OT for the OP, since he's asking about Oregon law, and I'm mulling what the best decision is going to be assuming the law is on your side.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    A better question is, what about in defense of property?

    Obviously, an animal is (at best) property, and so always comes second to human life.

    But what about other property? Obviously, the law would generally favor someone who shot an animal in the process of destroying his property.

    But it gets sticky, still. What about pets? What if some guy's dog is attacking my dog (no, I don't have a dog)? Obviously, if my dog is viewed as part of my family I'm going to want to defend him. On the other hand, legally he's property, and using lethal force against someone's else pet in defense of my property is likely going to be unpleasant.

    Granted, this is OT for the OP, since he's asking about Oregon law, and I'm mulling what the best decision is going to be assuming the law is on your side.
    Do you own a shovel?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Do you own a shovel?
    LOL Dual purpose and quieter than a gun.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Do you own a shovel?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL Dual purpose and quieter than a gun.
    /thread

    Next topic.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    See if the local LE department is hiring to get your pet killing fix.

    But in all seriousness in my state, and I suspect all states, your are justified in killing a dog that is in the act of attacking a person or livestock
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    If the hit rate on a larger human is only 30%, what makes you think you can stop a charging dog or two with a firearm. Plus, a single dog is rarely a threat to you, but it could be a threat to your family member. Then you have the problem of not hitting them but hitting the dog.

    Best to use a staff (or shovel) and a stern voice...

    You can also use an umbrella, opened suddenly, to stop a charge.

    I'd say forget relying on a handgun in the city to defend against a dog or two. Why risk losing your permit over a very low percentage method?

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    A problem with dogs is that they are one animal that will attack other animals much larger and more dangerous...as if the dog is either stupid or suicidal -- it just doesn't care and has no concern re: its own safety. That makes such an animal -- and some humans who are also suicidal -- the most dangerous assailants: They won't quit until you're dead. Or they are.

    Most animals will run from another larger more dangerous animal...can't AT ALL count on dogs to do that.

    So I wouldn't say a single dog is "rarely a threat" to a human. MOST times, no, but I wouldn't say "rarely." And while we have a leash-law here in Colorado, some people don't obey it and let their "friendly" dogs run loose -- I see too many dogs out there running freely, and possibly a danger to other dogs and people as well.

    As for self-defense from an aggressive/attacking dog, you have two choices: Shoot it, or, when it grabs onto you, use your knife on it -- we ALL also carry fighting knives, yes? I'm talking about legal-length (as per your state law) folding knives at the very least.

    A third option is calmly calling 911 (if the owner does nothing to retrieve his/her "friendly" dog)...no concern about the animal running away if you just let it keep gnawing on your leg to keep it busy, interested and entertained until police arrive. ;-)

    I don't want to hurt any dogs (even with a shovel or umbrella, which I never have on me anyway), but if one DOES attack me, I'd have to kill it...any way I can. Likely, I'd use my knife (no need to wake up the neighborhood) -- and take a few good bites at the same time I'm sure. Plus, since it actually had bitten me, the dog proved its intent, whereas shooting it some distance away (if TOO distant) MAY less persuasive when one claims the dog WAS going to bite. But I'm not ruling out shooting it. And IMO, a gun would be the BEST option for sure in the event of a multiple dog (pack) attack.

    In a self-defense situation, of course we do not have to sustain ANY injury FIRST before exercising self-defense, I'm just saying I'm not that worried about a single dog, even a big one (I'm big, too...sadly) so in a brief hand-to-paw encounter, a knife should be fine -- just know what specific spot on the dog (or a human) you're going to cut beforehand, don't wait to learn OJT. ;-)

    The good news is that guns and knives work on both categories of animals: 2-legged or 4-legged. As for guns, its caliber hardly matters, IF you hit the target in a vital zone (or a CNS shot, which is better than torso shots).

    But we're talking about DOGS...I have zero interest in fending off a Kodiak Brown Bear with my Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn Covert Double Bevel Titanium Knife, Black (Model 05786), thank you! ;-)

    As for an aggressive Chihuahua (they especially don't get how small/vulnerable they are) -- I'd just squash it like a bug.

    After all...a dog's got to know his limitations.

    -- Harry Callahan, SFPD (ret)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-25-2014 at 12:43 PM.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Regular Member MagiCyle's Avatar
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    I'm a full-sized man, yet I was attacked and bitten by a pittbull as I walked down a neighborhood sidewalk minding my business.
    I was out fishing one day with my ultra-friendly lab, when a pittbull charged in from nowhere and attacked and bit my lab.

    If a dog is attacking myself or others, or my pets, and I am unable to stop the attack by any other means, I would shoot to kill.
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    Last edited by MagiCyle; 12-25-2014 at 03:05 AM. Reason: additional relevant video

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    The pro at the golf course I frequent told me and my golf buddy about a charity event he was in and got paired up with 2 deputy sheriffs. While on the course a dog came running from one of the homes acting very aggressively and both shot it dead without hesitation. They also told him to always carry his gun so if it happens to him again to shoot any aggressive dog that approaches him. I know....... they are special, they got badges, and will get away with doing that. You and I had better be ready to do some 'splainin. Funny thing is, not long after that my buddy and I were approached just like that while golfing by a BIG black lab and I thought we were in for a fight with it. I do carry my .38 air weight golfing and just as I was going to draw it just in case the dog didn't back off the owner came running after it and got control of her dog. She never saw my gun. My golf buddy is a dog owner too and knew how to deal with it but he admitted he thought he was going to be dinner. I told him I was ready to shoot it if it attacked him when the owner showed up. You just never know.

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    Regular Member MagiCyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    The pro at the golf course I frequent told me and my golf buddy about a charity event he was in and got paired up with 2 deputy sheriffs. While on the course a dog came running from one of the homes acting very aggressively and both shot it dead without hesitation. They also told him to always carry his gun so if it happens to him again to shoot any aggressive dog that approaches him. I know....... they are special, they got badges, and will get away with doing that. You and I had better be ready to do some 'splainin. Funny thing is, not long after that my buddy and I were approached just like that while golfing by a BIG black lab and I thought we were in for a fight with it. I do carry my .38 air weight golfing and just as I was going to draw it just in case the dog didn't back off the owner came running after it and got control of her dog. She never saw my gun. My golf buddy is a dog owner too and knew how to deal with it but he admitted he thought he was going to be dinner. I told him I was ready to shoot it if it attacked him when the owner showed up. You just never know.
    I'm no whisperer, but I used to work at an SPCA. Several of the caged labs that barked and snarled aggressively, I could submit them just by yelling "NO! Bad Dog!" at them like I owned them. Some young male dogs go through an aggressive stage where they'll charge strangers... many of them are bluffing, they think they're defending their owners and have no intention of actually attacking. Not every dog that runs at you barking is going to attack. Just have to use best judgement and non-lethal solutions when applicable.

    With that said, thinking I wasn't going to get bit by the pitt that charged me in the story I described in my earlier post, is exactly what got me bit. I should have kicked it when it got within range.

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    Pro dog handlers might know that Pit Bull terriers are spelled with one 'T' as in the pit in which they were fought - and died.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member MagiCyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Pro dog handlers might know that Pit Bull terriers are spelled with one 'T' as in the pit in which they were fought - and died.
    We actually called them Staffordshire Terriers... but thanks for the correction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiCyle View Post
    We actually called them Staffordshire Terriers... but thanks for the correction.
    LOL Bwahaha. Only for the British Dangerous Dogs Act prohibiting Pit Bull Terriers by name -- so change the name. (Maurice Chittenden (8 February 2009) Sleeping baby Jaden Mack mauled to death by family terriers, The Sunday Times)

    I'll tell a story of a friend's Pit Bull, known as Pet-bull. He had his own pet Heinz terrier that he used to warm up nap spots. Chew toys and bones didn't last long so he was given billets of oak for toys, that would last for a few weeks until the splinters got too bad. He carried bricks around so much that his canines all had flat tops. He exercised his jaw muscles by crushing links of his chain-link fence together. But he was a nice enough dog.

    His master was very proud of his hall-clearing shorty-gun. We had great fun learning the metallurgy to make good crossbows at worl.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 12-25-2014 at 04:38 PM.
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    Regular Member MagiCyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL Bwahaha. Only for the British Dangerous Dogs Act prohibiting Pit Bull Terriers by name -- so change the name. (Maurice Chittenden (8 February 2009) Sleeping baby Jaden Mack mauled to death by family terriers, The Sunday Times)

    I'll tell a story of a friend's Pit Bull, known as Pet-bull. He had his own pet Heinz terrier that he used to warm up nap spots. Chew toys and bones didn't last long so he was given billets of oak for toys, that would last for a few weeks until the splinters got too bad. He carried bricks around so much that his canines all had flat tops. He exercised his jaw muscles by crushing links of his chain-link fence together. But he was a nice enough dog.

    His master was very proud of his hall-clearing shorty-gun. We had great fun learning the metallurgy to make good crossbows at worl.
    Pits are an intelligent and physically powerful breed, so they have the potential to be either extremely loving or extremely lethal. I've known plenty of nice Pits that I'd trust 100%. I've also been attacked twice by Pit Bulls on separate occasions. I blame the owners 100% in both attacks, but blaming the person doesn't reduce the Pit Bull's carnage potential.

    The most ferocious dogs I saw at the SPCA looked to be some sort of Rottweiler / Shepherd mix. They were feral monsters that were killing livestock. They attacked the kennel doors when we walked by, snarling, foaming, growing, barking. They were pretty terrifying. Might be helpful to remember that there's a small percentage of wild K-9 attack threats out there that are no one's pet.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiCyle View Post
    Pits are an intelligent and physically powerful breed, so they have the potential to be either extremely loving or extremely lethal. I've known plenty of nice Pits that I'd trust 100%. I've also been attacked twice by Pit Bulls on separate occasions. I blame the owners 100% in both attacks, but blaming the person doesn't reduce the Pit Bull's carnage potential.

    The most ferocious dogs I saw at the SPCA looked to be some sort of Rottweiler / Shepherd mix. They were feral monsters that were killing livestock. They attacked the kennel doors when we walked by, snarling, foaming, growing, barking. They were pretty terrifying. Might be helpful to remember that there's a small percentage of wild K-9 attack threats out there that are no one's pet.
    When I was a child I was mauled by as border collie, a damn border collie. Any dog can be dangerous, especially large dogs or dogs in a pack. We have a female pit, she is a loving animal. Chews up everything she can get her teeth on, but a loving animal. Teach any dog to be mean, and they will be mean.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    ...and if Obama had a dog, ...
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    In Oregon you can lawfully shoot a dog if it is not on its owners property and attacking/chasing livestock (ORS 609.150). Anybody may shoot this dog, as it is declared a public nuisance. This is the only law I could find relating to shooting dogs in the ORS.

    Influential (but not binding) case law:

    "[O]ne is 'privileged to destroy an animal for the purpose of defending himself or third persons against harm threatened by the animal, (a) if its actions led him to know or reasonably believe that the animal would inflict such harm and (b) the destruction was reasonable in view of the gravity of the harm threatened and (c) the person reasonably believed the harm could be prevented only by immediate destruction of the animal." (Devincenzi v. Faulkner (1959) 174 Cal.App.2d 250, 254-5.)
    Also, if you know of a dangerous animal (see definition in 609.098) that is being kept, the keeping is unlawful under ORS 609.098.

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    Texas law states that you can use deadly force to protect yourself or another from 'imminent grave harm and/or death.' NOTHING in that law requires that threat to only have two legs! I have drawn on an aggressive dog charging towards me; I was hollering at the top of my lungs for the owner to come save their animal! Fortunetly he heard me, got his dog under control and was VERY appologetic.
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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    It's the three S rule; Shoot it, Shovel it, and Shut up about it.

    That's how Montanans and Idahoans deal with wolves and other predators (so I'm told)

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