Receiving a Handgun as a gift...out of state

skidmark · Dec 29, 2014

gutshot said:
Mason-Dixon line??????WTF

It was surveyed to settle a dispute over just where the boundary between PA and :hack, spit: Mary Land was located. Later it was used to settle a border dispute between PA and Virginia, and to prove that the Quakers had built Fort Pitt in Virginia.

That, precisely and pedantically, is why the F it is mentioned.

Any more questions from the gap-toothed, chinless, slack-jawed (go look up what those are genetic indicators of) folks from north of the line?

stay safe.

skidmark · Dec 29, 2014

peter nap said:
His questions were answered on page one, reply one.

But then almost everybody jumped in with suggestions how to break the law.

stay safe.

TFred · Dec 29, 2014

peter nap said:
Unfortunately Taz, we are still trying to give that part north of the Ni to Mary Land. :banana:

Humbly suggest you move your boundary a bit further north to the Rappahannock!

It's just a few miles farther - a much easier boundary to define (not many folks actually know where the Ni River is!), and it keeps us lots of good folks in Culpeper, Spotsylvania, Caroline, Essex and Middlesex counties. Granted, there are probably more unfriendlies in the city of Fredericksburg, but there are some good folks there too. We certainly don't want to be no stinkin' Maryland!

TFred

DrMark · Dec 29, 2014

peter nap said:
His questions were answered on page one, reply one.

Yup, and the rest is just gravy.

I swear, these threads always go the same way. The question is answered in the first reply or two, and the remainder of the thread evolves into a Benny Hill skit.

scouser · Dec 30, 2014

DrMark said:
Yup, and the rest is just gravy.

I swear, these threads always go the same way. The question is answered in the first reply or two, and the remainder of the thread evolves into a Benny Hill skit.

usually with david playing the part of the little bald guy who keeps getting slapped on the head

Chief Ten Beers · Dec 30, 2014

gutshot said:
Yes, but this thread is about a father in PA gifting a handgun to his son in VA. It has nothing to do with KY. or any other intrastate transfer.

I understand that.
Lets say I bought a gun from a private sale at a gun show here in Kentucky, and I wanted to gift it to one of my sons who lives in Florida, would I have to go through an FFL to do so if I took it down there to give it to him, and would I have to go through an FFL if he came up here and I gave it to him? :question:

peter nap · Dec 30, 2014

Chief Ten Beers said:
I understand that.
Lets say I bought a gun from a private sale at a gun show here in Kentucky, and I wanted to gift it to one of my sons who lives in Florida, would I have to go through an FFL to do so if I took it down there to give it to him, and would I have to go through an FFL if he came up here and I gave it to him? :question:

To satisfy the law. ..yes you do and thats what this thread is about. . what the majority do or would do is another subject and a subject thats not allowed on this board which is why I made my common sense comment in the beginning.

wrearick · Dec 30, 2014

serious question related to this topic. I (VA resident) may be getting a handgun from my father in Michigan and a long gun/shotgun from my Father in law in Florida. If I understand the answers here so far, the hand gun transfer has to be done at an FFL here in Virginia but the shotgun transfer could be done at an FFL in Florida. Both of these gentlemen are get up in age and my father requires dialysis every other day so it is unlikely either will ever travel to Virginia again in their lifetimes. Me traveling to Florida to take possession of the shot gun at an FFL down there is doable but looking for LEGAL options on gaining possession of the handgun from Michigan. Can my father take the handgun to an FFL in Michigan and ship it to an FFL in Virginia for me to receive? (may be an option for the Florida shotgun as well considering time off work and travel costs down to Florida and back)

Thanks,

JamesCanby · Dec 30, 2014

peter nap said:
Unfortunately Taz, we are still trying to give that part north of the Ni to Mary Land. :banana:

Bite your tongue, Sir (or in this case your typing fingers). It took me 62 years to escape from TPRofMaryland and I am not about to be dragged kicking and screaming back into its environs by fiat.

Still working hard to bring NoVA back into a more respectable place...

Wolf_shadow · Dec 30, 2014

wrearick said:
serious question related to this topic. I (VA resident) may be getting a handgun from my father in Michigan and a long gun/shotgun from my Father in law in Florida. If I understand the answers here so far, the hand gun transfer has to be done at an FFL here in Virginia but the shotgun transfer could be done at an FFL in Florida. Both of these gentlemen are get up in age and my father requires dialysis every other day so it is unlikely either will ever travel to Virginia again in their lifetimes. Me traveling to Florida to take possession of the shot gun at an FFL down there is doable but looking for LEGAL options on gaining possession of the handgun from Michigan. Can my father take the handgun to an FFL in Michigan and ship it to an FFL in Virginia for me to receive? (may be an option for the Florida shotgun as well considering time off work and travel costs down to Florida and back)

Thanks,

IANAL but My understanding of the law is, The answer would be yes!

DrMark · Dec 30, 2014

JamesCanby said:
Still working hard to bring NoVA back into a more respectable place...

Fighting the good fight! Appreciated!

DrMark · Dec 30, 2014

wrearick said:
Can my father take the handgun to an FFL in Michigan and ship it to an FFL in Virginia for me to receive?

Sure. Also, if your VA FFL accepts shipments from individuals (some do, some don't), then you father can ship it to the VA FFL himself (UPS/FedEx overnight), assuming there's no MI-specific law preventing that.

notalawyer · Dec 30, 2014

wrearick said:
serious question related to this topic. I (VA resident) may be getting a handgun from my father in Michigan and a long gun/shotgun from my Father in law in Florida. If I understand the answers here so far, the hand gun transfer has to be done at an FFL here in Virginia but the shotgun transfer could be done at an FFL in Florida. Both of these gentlemen are get up in age and my father requires dialysis every other day so it is unlikely either will ever travel to Virginia again in their lifetimes. Me traveling to Florida to take possession of the shot gun at an FFL down there is doable but looking for LEGAL options on gaining possession of the handgun from Michigan. Can my father take the handgun to an FFL in Michigan and ship it to an FFL in Virginia for me to receive? (may be an option for the Florida shotgun as well considering time off work and travel costs down to Florida and back)

Thanks,

To comply with Federal Law, the firearm must be delivered by the current possessor to an FFL in Virginia for transfer to you. There are only two choices on the method of delivery: The current possessor hand delivers it to the FFL, or ships it interstate via a common, or contract carrier; well maybe three - he could transfer it to another resident of the state he resides in who could then deliver it to an FFL in Va.

For the long gun, he could use any of the above, or you could travel to his state of residence, or both of you could travel to some other state and do the transfer at an FFL in that state. Please note in these situations, the laws of your state, his state, and the state where the FFL resides would all have to be followed, like waiting periods, scary configuration limitations, purchase permits, etc. etc.

notalawyer · Dec 30, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
Well, the law seems pretty darn clear to me:

What part of the ATF's interpretation do you disagree with?

Absent the law being facially unconstitutional? The ATF (nor federal law) lacks authority to determine how a state defines 'licensed'.

I submit that a reasonably intelligent person would consider "...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State..." is legally distinct from "...if the individual possessing the firearm possesses a license issued by the State..."

Think reciprocity.

notalawyer · Dec 30, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
Wrong. It is perfectly legal for the Michigan resident to deliver the handgun to an FFL in Michigan - who can then MAIL the handgun to a Virginia FFL using US Postal Service (which saves considerable $$$ in shipping costs because the original owner would have to ship it overnight via FEDEX or UPS). The Virginia FFL will then transfer the handgun to the final recipient. This type of transaction is perfectly legal and happens every day in this country. Most private sellers who sell handguns on gunbroker choose to send the handgun via their own local FFL because of the savings in shipping costs. The Michigan FFL logs the handgun into his bound book as being received from the original owner and logs it out of his bound book as being shipped to the Virginia FFL. The Virginia FFL logs the handgun into his bound book as being received from the Michigan FFL and logs it out of his bound book as being transferred to the new owner.

I submit that you are missing one key point in the exception to the Federal GFSZA:

"the State" refers to only one state - the state in which the school zone is located in. "Licensed" by the state the school zone is located in is an exception only if a background check is performed by the same state the school zone is located in. My Concealed Pistol License may be recognized by another state - but that other state has not performed the required background check to be exempt from the school zone act.

It is perfectly legal for the Michigan resident to deliver the handgun to an FFL in Michigan

I did not say it was not. The point was the the current possessor has to get it, lawfully, to the FFL in VA. And he can't use Uncle Bob to do it.

There is no requirement for a background check. It is an overreach of federal authority to stipulate how a state 'licenses' an individual, just as it is to require that state's law enforcement authorities verify the qualifications.

Our interpretations differ on GFSZ, but that is neither here nor there. The law has never been enforced on an otherwise lawful person. I doubt it ever will, as doing so will surely cause it to be ruled unconstitutional, again.

skidmark · Dec 30, 2014

To expand just a little on the responses above:

NavyLCDR's father takes the firearm (handgun in this case) to a FFL in Michigan and transfers it to him/her. The Michigan FFL puts the firearm on their bound book as a transfer in. The FFL then transfers the firearm to a Virginia FFL, marking it in their bound book as being transferred out. The Virginia FFL receives the firearm, marking it in their bound book as transferred in. The Virginia FFL then calls you and tells you your firearm is in and to come pick it up. You show up and the Virginia FFL makes you complete the 4473 and State forms, runs your info through tjhe system, and if you are approved the FFL transfers the firearm to you, marking it in his bound book as having been transferred out.

The father in Michigan (possessor) transfers the firearm to the Michigan FFL who is now the legal possessor. And so on down the chain till it gets to NavyLCDR who becomes the legal possessor.

It's just the same as when a wholesaler transfers a firearm to a distributor who transfers it to your LGS where the LGS's FFL transfers it to you. The difference being that FFL-to-FFL does not require filling out 4473s all day long or shipping by next-day air. Everything is tracked via their bound books.

stay safe.

Old Virginia Joe · Dec 30, 2014

Grapeshot said:
] Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

Yeah, that strategy really worked well for me, didn't it! You were there in the court. You saw with your own eyes, "That ain't workin'" (Dire Straits) when I tried (1st) to get the law changed at the Board of Supervisors for eight months, then (2nd) at the Circuit Court level, we lost. All that effort to make it legal to simply be able to legally camp occasionally, without a permit, on my own farm, and it all failed. Meanwhile, our lives are passing away from us, Liberty denied, in one case after another . . . . . .

peter nap · Dec 30, 2014

If you get a chance,email me joe. ..there is a new lobby organization you might like.

TFred · Dec 31, 2014

notalawyer said:
To comply with Federal Law, the firearm must be delivered by the current possessor to an FFL in Virginia for transfer to you. There are only two choices on the method of delivery: The current possessor hand delivers it to the FFL, or ships it interstate via a common, or contract carrier; well maybe three - he could transfer it to another resident of the state he resides in who could then deliver it to an FFL in Va.

This is not an area with which I am particularly well versed, but I seem to recall reading at one point that if an individual ships the gun to the FFL in the other state, there may be an additional risk in the case that for some unforeseen reason the FFL background check on the intended recipient comes back prohibiting the transfer.

If the shipment came from an FFL in the originating state, the second FFL can easily ship back. But if the shipment came from an individual in another state, I've seen claims that the FFL cannot ship the gun back to the sender, which puts the gun in sort of a "limbo land".

Anyone know if this is true? And if so, something to keep in mind.

TFred

peter nap · Dec 31, 2014

TFred said:
This is not an area with which I am particularly well versed, but I seem to recall reading at one point that if an individual ships the gun to the FFL in the other state, there may be an additional risk in the case that for some unforeseen reason the FFL background check on the intended recipient comes back prohibiting the transfer.

If the shipment came from an FFL in the originating state, the second FFL can easily ship back. But if the shipment came from an individual in another state, I've seen claims that the FFL cannot ship the gun back to the sender, which puts the gun in sort of a "limbo land".

Anyone know if this is true? And if so, something to keep in mind.

TFred

There are probably FFL that won't ship back but they can. The sender hasn't given up ownership until the transfer is completed so no background check is needed to return it and all the record keeping is done in the FFLS book.

Receiving a Handgun as a gift...out of state

Campaign Veteran

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Lone Star Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Activist Member

Activist Member

Lone Star Veteran

Lone Star Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate