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Toddler fatally shoots mom in Idaho Walmart
- Thread starter oldbanger
- Start date
Firearms Iinstuctor
Regular Member
A tragedy for sure it been mentioned before improper carry for sure.
I have taught many women in self defense carry I teach off body carry is not a good idea.
Many women argue with me about purse carry as mention before it is a bad idea for many reasons.
The only time I would think it would be ok would be a specially designed purse that has a separate place for the firearm and reinforce shoulder strap.
Then only if it is carried over the shoulder with the strap always. Then it is not much different then a fanny pack.
As it is seen here if not on your person it is far to easy for an unauthorized person to access your firearm.
Far to easy to set it down and forget it.
As with many tragedies with a little fore thought it never would have happen.
Let hope others learn from it and it can be prevented from happening again
I have taught many women in self defense carry I teach off body carry is not a good idea.
Many women argue with me about purse carry as mention before it is a bad idea for many reasons.
The only time I would think it would be ok would be a specially designed purse that has a separate place for the firearm and reinforce shoulder strap.
Then only if it is carried over the shoulder with the strap always. Then it is not much different then a fanny pack.
As it is seen here if not on your person it is far to easy for an unauthorized person to access your firearm.
Far to easy to set it down and forget it.
As with many tragedies with a little fore thought it never would have happen.
Let hope others learn from it and it can be prevented from happening again
MSG Laigaie
Campaign Veteran
My Sweet Baboo has several of these style purse/gunbags. She does not always zip it closed (the inner pocket) and they all have velcroed holsters in them. That does not mean the victim was zipped or even had the holster in it.
Still....you do not let a child near your weapon.
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
Exactly! I've always hated the idea of purse carry. But it's precisely as you say, people (even more so women IMO) are shamed into not OC by a brainless sheep-filled society.
Contrarian
Regular Member
shooting.
"So on Christmas morning last week, her husband gave her a present he hoped would make her life more comfortable: a purse with a special pocket for a concealed weapon."
Quote from the WA Post article...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z4
"So on Christmas morning last week, her husband gave her a present he hoped would make her life more comfortable: a purse with a special pocket for a concealed weapon."
Quote from the WA Post article...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z4
Firearms Iinstuctor
Regular Member
I wonder how and if she carried much before receiving the purse?
FreeInAZ
Regular Member
Been my experience that most (all?) Wal-Marts are exceptionally well covered with security cams.
Also has been no indication that the gun was behind a zipper, the compartment may have been open.
I do agree with withholding judgement.
utbagpiper
Banned
The article you quoted indicated she did:
"Veronica typically left her Blackfoot, Idaho, home with her gun nestled at her side."
This appears to be a momentary mistake with a most tragic outcome, rather than someone who likely routinely mishandled a firearm.
It is well and good to learn from others' mistakes. I hope that none of us feel any need to pile on here or otherwise try to draw some sharp distinction between us and this woman. Nothing is 100% safe. I presume most of us drive cars. Some ride motorcycles. Where I live back country skiing and snowshoeing are common. All carry some risk. Adherence to proper safety procedures, being properly prepared, etc will reduce but not eliminate risks.
Owning, carrying, and using guns carries some risk. I think we can own those risks without endangering our rights or even public perception. Indeed, properly owning the risks makes clear we are honest and accurate. As I point out when people try to make some hay about how a permit to carry is no guarantee of being law abiding in the future: we revoke about 2 permits out of every 1,000 active each year. That compares very favorably with the rate at which police officers lose their certification for misconduct, that school teachers lose their licenses for misconduct, etc.
According to Data from the CDC (Table 10, data from 2011), accidental gun deaths (such as this one) account for a total of 600 deaths a year in this nation, about the same number of persons who die from TB, less than 10% of the number who die from HIV (over 7600). Almost 2,000 persons a year die from hernias. Over 27,000 of our fellow countrymen die from falls each year, another 3,500 from accidental drowning, 2,700 from accidental exposure to smoke, fire and flames. Accidental poisonings account for over 36,000 deaths each year in this nation. Some 38,000 die in motor vehicle accidents.
Comparatively, owning, using, and carrying guns is a very low risk activity. One can find his favorite numbers on how many violent crimes are stopped or prevented each year by private citizens carrying guns and the cost/benefit analysis works out pretty good even before we include intangible benefits like the enjoyment from owning guns or the super-macro benefits of private firearms working to limit government power and abuse of rights.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
I think the event has far more to do with maintaining proper control over the firearm than whether a "proper" holster is used. It appears the firearm was carried in a purse designed for that purpose. I'm not aware of any carry method that is designed to prevent children accidentally discharging a firearm if they are given access to the carry method.
I suspect that given a little time, most children could figure out how to get a firearm out of a Level-III retention holster.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
twoskinsonemanns said:
I don't think OC has a thing to do with this, except as a subset of on body carry, vs off body carry.
The Washington Post article suggests that she routinely carried her gun on body before getting the gun purse as a Christmas gift. I suspect the decision to try the purse had a lot more to do with personal comfort and the limitations of women's fashion than anything to do with being "shamed" by sheep. This occurred in rural Idaho, not like OC raises a lot of eyebrows there.
But let's face it, the ladies often give some thought to fashion and women's fashion presents some real challenges to carry a gun on body. It isn't like a dress even has a waist to which a "proper" holster can be secured. Most skirts are not much better. Short of wrapping a duty belt around their waists, the women face certain challenges carrying. Have you noticed that many women's jeans don't even have usable pockets? Many coats and jackets (other than hard core hiking/camping types) cut and styled for women don't have much in the way of usable pockets either. This is the reason so many women take to stashing their cell phones in their bras.
I'd guess this incident had nothing to do with any shame about OCing, and a lot more to do with an effort to find a more comfortable method of carrying than on-body (CC or OC) while wearing women's clothing, and making a mistake because she wasn't yet fully comfortable with the safety procedures needed for purse carry.
Charles
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
A good point in the distinction. And under 5000 words even. Post approved
Although I still believe a proper holster is important, even I think 2yo is too young to allow access to a gun.
Ridiculous reasoning being purposely obtuse to the stigma of OC...
utbagpiper
Banned
A good point in the distinction. And under 5000 words even. Post approved
Although I still believe a proper holster is important, even I think 2yo is too young to allow access to a gun.
Certainly too young for unsupervised access.
There is nothing ridiculous in being aware of how women's fashion affect all options for on-body carry. Nor did I do anything to minimize the stigma of OC generally, I simply questioned the extent to which one can justly ascribe that stigma as playing any roll at all in this particular case.
Do you even know what she was wearing at the time of this tragic accident? Was OC a practical potential for her regardless of any stigma?
Do you know a thing about her or her mindset to be able to assert that any social stigma had any effect on her at all?
I know plenty of gun owners who choose to conceal (at least part of the time) for reasons that have nothing to do with any stigma. Fact of the matter is, my pocket gun (carried in a pocket holster) is a lot more comfortable to carry than it is to carry the gun I carry when I OC. It is a lot easier for me to do yard work, work on my car, work out at the gym, etc, while pocket carrying than with a gun (OCd or CCd) on my hip. My pocket gun doesn't scratch the paint on my car nearly as easily as an OCd gun would. I can much more easily slide under the car, or lay out flat on the lawn working on my sprinkler system if I don't have a gun on my hip. An inasmuch my clothing provides more protection for my firearm than does my OC retention holster, I don't have to clean my gun nearly as often as I would if I was OCing and getting lawn clippings, dust, mud, rain, etc. If I take a serious tumble while skiing, a small gun secured in a zippered pocket results in less discomfort than would a gun on my hip. A gun in a pocket, or in a concealed holster under clothing is not subjected to the massive amounts of mud that would otherwise quickly coat (and possibly foul) a gun OC'd while riding a dirk bike.
There are certain activities where having a gun on my hip (or OCd) is simply inconvenient, uncomfortable, or likely to result in damage to the gun or other property. There are times in my life where a concealed gun or even a pocket gun is more comfortable. I carry in the way that is most comfortable and workable for me and I do so without much thought at all to either the "stigma" of OC, nor of whatever stigma some would like to impose on CCing rather than OCing.
I assume that lots of other gun owners have a similar mindset.
Why do you assume that a gun owner in rural Idaho would be unduly influenced by "stigma" against OC?
Charles
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Look at the image to the top left of your screen, nothing more attractive than a woman who takes responsibility for herself. The claim that OC is not fashion is silly when your loved ones life is on the line, more than silly but stupid. That is why they make pink and chrome guns, for the women who want to be fashion smart while being responsible. The purse was a bad idea for somebody who did not take the time to think about other fingers than her own. I also advise strongly against purse carry, it is the only time I stick my nose in on how a lady carries. Even a CC purse with a pocket once snatched is useful to the crook and useless to the lady. Personally I have never seen a lady carry a purse across the shoulder, it is always on the same shoulder as the purse hangs. Making it easier for a purse snatcher.
This is just a sad, tragic event that clearly could have been avoided. Too late for her, but hopefully a lot of purse CC will take note. And I have never seen OC using a purse, it is strictly CC, so yes OC would have prevented this tragedy.
This is just a sad, tragic event that clearly could have been avoided. Too late for her, but hopefully a lot of purse CC will take note. And I have never seen OC using a purse, it is strictly CC, so yes OC would have prevented this tragedy.
You missed the point. Holster carry (body carry) is safer. The shame put on OC has people doing unsafe things to conceal sometimes.
As for holsters, open or concealed, yes, children can get a gun out of a holster, including varying levels of retention. Can they do it without you knowing about it? Not nearly as likely. That would be more to the point.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
True, when we look back on the reasons giving for CC we see that stigma is high on the list. A few want a element of surprise so they can ambush bad guys, yes we actually had a member try to make this point. Same member who constantly bashed OC. Outside of convenience during winter, or draconian laws there really is no reason not to OC over CC. That is why it is called conceal carry, because the person is HIDING that they are armed.
Just check the Iraq veteran thread and the stigma is putrid by the posters of the video. IMO stigma is very high on the list as to why people conceal.
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
Of course the stigma is the main reason. I always OC when I can legally. I also talk to my friends/loved ones about it. The number reason they don't is always the attention it brings. The looks. The possible leo harassment. Not once was fashion EVER brought up.
I have the same experiences with my students. The women want to conceal because carrying is "frowned upon" by their friends and especially relatives. The love the comfort of a good holster at the range, and most are wearing jeans most of the time anyway. Many of them are also very keen on attractive holsters like my Milt Sparks sharkskin. There is little lack of fashion except those who attempt to rationalize it.
utbagpiper
Banned
If you are talking about on-body holster, sure. I don't assume that all holsters are on-body. Perhaps you meant to imply something that I missed.
Charles