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Thread: A restraining order that didn't work.

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    A restraining order that didn't work.

    I started dating a female in 1997 who had a stalker. I had met her on a Friday at a local bar and we hit it off pretty fast. Her ex boyfriend who happened to be the father of her child, had been calling leaving messages on the answering machine that he was going to kill the babies one by one in front of her and then slowly rape her while stabbing her to death then he would kill himself. He would constantly leave clues of his peeking into her windows at night by leaving cigarette butts outside the windows and footprints as well. She had tried to leave him numerous times but he just would not take "NO" for an answer. He would beat her relentlessly until she promised to stay with him.

    She had explained to me that she kept coming back to him because of fear. She said the Police couldn't protect her and her children at all and it was just simpler to remain a victim and know where the next attack would come from and not be in more fear by having to watch her back if she were by herself. She then stated that the last violent episode had gone too far. He had threatened one of her children and she finally got a restraining order to keep him at bay.


    This many years later I can now see how my being a cop played into her sense of feeling secure. I had the weapons she couldn't afford to buy and the training to teach her how to use them and she also NOW had a 24 hour "body guard" so to speak.

    Thinking about this incident almost 18 years later I can't remember if I was still a deputy at this time or if it was after this that I resigned my commission. At any rate, it was around this time I resigned my commission to reside permanently in Oklahoma.

    I remember thinking to myself that I should basically run fleeing away from this relationship and to never look back but if I had done so I believe this man would have eventually killed Terri and the kids.

    As I mentioned previously I was a LEO in Louisiana, or had been, and was visiting my hometown on extensive leave to take care of my ailing mother. My intention was always to return to Louisiana and continue my career after whatever was to happen with my mother. After this incident I decided to stay with Terri to help her through the trauma of what had occurred. I will let you know that the trauma became too much for the both of us and we separated four months later.

    Resuming where I left off before, I had just the Friday before started dating Terri and had spent the entire weekend at her apartment. As she had told me that for several months she had been harassed and stalked by the father of her son and that she had just the week prior retained a restraining order on Tony in the hopes that he would stop,

    I advised her to let me train her on how to defend herself with a firearm. After hearing several recordings of Tony leaving very detailed and threatening messages on her answering machine it dawned on me that this man had slipped a cog or two and that his cheese had done slid off his cracker. I went to my house and brought several backup weapons over to familiarize her with them. We were to go to the range the next morning to teach her how to shoot. That is why most of my weapons were loaded with hardball ammo. On hindsight I now keep defensive ammo loaded at ALL times until reaching the range.

    I've had many years to think about this entire thought process and the many warnings that sounded inside my head about keeping my distance and to stop and desist with any and all feelings of wanting to be this woman's hero but in retrospect hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. Besides I was young and dumb and every woman needs a hero right? So for whatever reason I stayed put. All the while knowing there was going to be a train wreck at the end. I stayed the course and only after many months of trying to get Terri to seek help that she blatantly would not do, I derailed and split the relationship.

    The next morning was Monday I believe, I was going over to my moms house to check on her because she was ill but when I opened the front door to the house I was confronted by a note stuck to the tree with a Bowie knife just in front of the door. It simply stated,

    "BITCH IM GOING TO KILL THE BABIES WHILE YOU WATCH THEN KILL YOU AND HIM THEN MYSELF" signed in his blood ~Tony~


    I immediately went to condition orange. Looking everywhere around the house and outside in the bushes and stopped at the edge of the property feeling a sense of being watched. I was armed but it did little to ease my mind as there was a forest just at the edge of the property. I went inside and woke her. I quickly explained the note and told her to contact the Police Department.

    As stated she already had a protective order against him but it was just a piece of paper. It wouldn't do any good to stand behind a sheet of paper and wave it in the face of a charging bull.

    She called the police and was told that it was change of shift and could they please call her back to which she agreed as it wasn't exactly an emergency was it? She wasn't at that moment facing an imminent threat was she?

    Terri then explained to me that I needed to go see to my mother as she was very ill and needed me to be there more than I was needed there with her. She explained that while her ex was very disturbed, she could take care of herself. To this I remember thinking to myself, "I shouldn't leave at a time like this" but my mom really needed me and I had promised to be there. I left her with the knowledge that there were handguns in the closet and all she had to do was grab any of them and start pulling the trigger as none of them had an external safety. She then stated, "I will shoot in the air to scare him off." I gave her a look of disbelief and horror and told her, "Understand that if he kicks open that front door he has violated the safety of your children and yourself. This is your dwelling, your home, your sanctuary and your private domain. If he kicks open that door or gains entry any other way, SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT. And if that is to happen when the police get here you only need to say, I shot to stop the threat. Do not say anything else and plead the 5th until you have talked to a lawyer."

    You may think that a police officer wouldn't tell someone something like this but being a cop in Louisiana and knowing to what lengths some officers go to get a confession has given me quite a bit of insight on these issues. This incident happened in Oklahoma so it's not like I had any influence on anything that might happen as a result of a death that might or might not occur. I was visiting my mom when all this happened and on vacation from my department in Louisiana. Anytime a death occurs, SHUT YOUR MOUTH and GET A LAWYER. A police officer is NOT your friend. Trust me on this. A simple meaningless "white lie" to you might be all that's needed to send you to prison for eternity. A police officer will try to find ANY inconsistency to prosecute you and if you're mind is so rattled after an occurrence such as this, (Which is SURE to be the case) that you forget any detail or tell something out of sequence, YOURE SCREWED.

    So what happened?
    After I left and feeling as if I was being watched the whole time, he made his move. Terri had just received her callback from the PD and the dispatcher was asking questions when the door started being kicked in.

    The whole entire event was recorded and I got to hear it afterward because the detective let me listen to it. I suppose he did so knowing I was in Law Enforcement. To this day I really don't know why he let me hear it. Please don't quote me verbatim but the recording went something like this:

    Dispatcher: "we are returning your call from earlier can you now elaborate on what's going on?"

    Terri: "Yes, I have a P.O. Against my ex and he's been stalking me and leaving me feeling very scared. OH MY GOD, HE'S HERE AT MY DOOR."

    Dispatcher: "Ma'am did you say he's at your door?"

    Terri: "OH MY GOD, YES HE'S AT MY DOOR AND TRYING TO KICK IT DOWN. PLEASE SEND SOMEBODY NOW. I'VE GOT GUNS, IVE GOT A LOT OF GUNS. IF HE COMES IN I'M GOING TO SHOOT HIM. I HAVE CHILDREN HERE WITH ME."

    Dispatcher: "Ma'am did you just advise you have children with you and that you are armed?"

    *****Disturbance in background the entire time of this recording. Sounds of door being kicked in and of Tony yelling*****
    "BITCH I'M COMING IN AND I'M GONNA KILL YOU BITCH."

    Terri: "YES, I HAVE TWO CHILDREN HIDING IN THE BACK BEDROOM AND I HAVE JUST ARMED MYSELF WITH A PISTOL."

    Dispatcher: "Ma'am I don't advise arming yourself I have a unit enroute you just need to remain calm okay. Just let the police handle this. Please don't get a gun."

    Terri: "REALLY? WHAT? THERES A LUNATIC AT MY FUC$&$ING DOOR AND YOURE ACTUALLY TELLING ME NOT TO DEFEND MYSELF? IF HE COMES THROUGH THAT DOOR I'M SHOOTING!"

    About this time in the recording Tony gains entry and you hear one gunshot and a pause. Then four more in quick succession.

    The first shot went through his right hand which had been holding a knife and grazed the right rib cage and went out into the front yard.
    In the attached news paper article it says he was shot four times, he was actually shot five times.

    At this point in time a decision was made. If it had been made by a sane intelligent person it would have consisted of running at high speed AWAY from the danger and ending further confrontation. However, being hopped up on meth and spending many sleepless nights doing the same, a smart decision was avoided entirely and Tony decided to dive INTO the living room and pick up the coffee table, covering his upper and lower body with it. He was still screaming expletives the entire time while running toward Terri thinking 9mm ball ammo stops at a coffee table.

    ***Not only do they NOT stop at a coffee table, they continue THROUGH said coffee table, through the body of the person holding it and through the television set and one hit the wall behind the television set.***

    Four more shots rang out. The shots that connected were later witnessed by myself shortly after I arrived on scene. Turns out that training at a firing range was not required. Terri had put the four rounds directly into his heart into a group I could have covered with a quarter. Hardball 9mm did NOT stop him from traveling through the entire living room and into the kitchen where he collapsed at the back wall.

    The dispatcher after hearing shots fired sounded like she lost her mind. She went from calm cool and collected while telling Terri to become a victim by not arming herself to this babbling blubbering fool the next. Yelling, "SHOTS FIRED, SHOTS FIRED, I NEED ALL AVAILABLE UNITS...........blah....blah......blah

    I had left and got the feeling that I desperately needed to get back where I started and hauled my ass back in time to see the ambulance and several police cruisers and crime scene tape all over the place.

    In summation. This was a justifiable homicide. After all facts were collected and everything came to the conclusion of that very fact, I was approached by the lead detective who told me that he wanted to arrest Terri from the very beginning but the evidence wouldn't allow him to do it. I asked him what stopped him from the arrest and he simply told me that the restraining order was THE ONLY REASON.
    Really? Are you kidding me? Even WITHOUT the restraining order this was an open and shut case of self defense and this a**hole would have arrested her for simply having no restraining order?
    That's why I'm telling everybody that reads this, SHUT YOUR MOUTH, PLEAD THE FIFTH AND GET A LAWYER. POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.

    I always tell my friends about how they confiscated my weapon and held onto it four months after the shooting was a ruled justifiable homicide. I also tell them about the officer that had taken it from the scene had not returned my calls and would not speak to me about my firearm. Yes it was the cheapest one I owned with it being a Ruger P-95 9mm but it was mine and I wanted it back.

    I finally cornered the officer at the local police department and he had no other choice but to give it back to me. I remember following him down to the squad room and past an evidence safe and straight to HIS wall locker. He opened the locker and reached up and retrieved my firearm and dropped the magazine out of it and commenced to take HIS personal self defense rounds out of it and handed it to me. I quickly examined my weapon and found that he had engraved, YES I SAID ENGRAVED, permanently the case number and HIS initials down both sides of my slide.
    I was NOT happy to say the least. This weapon had been newly purchased by myself prior to coming to Oklahoma and still had the packing grease inside the slide and he decided to permanently engrave his initials and the case number on it?
    Which is why I ALSO tell people, If by chance you do get involved in a situation where you have to defend yourself or a loved one, know that your weapon WILL be taken into evidence and you will not have it for awhile.
    Not every Police Officer will try to keep your weapon as their own but I guess I'm just unlucky like that.
    This Police Officer is no longer employed by anybody in our area. I don't know if it was because of this incident or a combination of others as well but he was no longer employed by them shortly after this incident.

    I realize this was a very lengthy tale but I assure you it's all true. Check out the link I posted below. Thanks for reading and I know there are some who will pick through this but I'm a good guy and will answer questions when they arise.

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/man-f...0d4b68560.html

    http://newsok.com/domestic-dispute-b...rticle/2578953

    Thanks again
    Doc

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO.

    I am wondering what brought you here and to tell your story. Curiosity, nothing else.

    An aside - after being PO'd for a while I think I might have given Terri that pistol as a reminder not so much of the inncident but of the fact that there is not going to be anybody else there to protect her or her kids.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Hello Skidmark and good morning. I've found your blog quite by accident when I was searching for stories of armed self defense. I'm now on page 11 of this forum and am really enjoying the stories and comments. Quite honestly I wanted to tell my story a long time ago but saw the bashing a lot of posters received when they told theirs but then I realized something extremely important. The posts that they shared and were bashed about were quite honestly deserved. They were unbelievable stories because they were mostly fabricated tales of Rambo wannabe types that deserved to be made an example of to begin with. Why should I be in fear of telling a true story? I've got a news article to share as well and I was there when it happened.
    The incident was very scary to say the least. When I arrived on scene I actually thought Tony had gained entry and killed everybody as I didn't immediately see Terri or the kids. The cops had arrived way too late and had gotten the kids out by the bedroom window so they wouldn't have to see the image of Tony lying dead in the kitchen for the rest of their lives.
    Anyway I know this isn't a story of OC but wanted to share with you and the members here.
    Also I now remember that 18 years later I didn't see the body, the detectives showed me pictures of the body and the wounds that were inflicted as well as the exit wounds. To this day I have no idea why these Detectives were so eager to show me all of the details of the scene but they allowed me to look at pictures, listen to the 911 recordings and answered all questions I had without any hesitation.
    It's amazing how many details you forget and remember later in life. I'm sure if this had been a large department I would have never been able to access all that data. Thanks for letting me join and also thanks for letting me share.
    Telling the story allows me to deal with the emotions that have been locked away for so very long and allows me to also share with others what happens after you've been in a situation like that. I never knew Tony but I do know his son as he now has a sister that is also my daughter from the relationship I shared with Terri so long ago.
    This incident destroyed so many lives really. I wish it had never happened but such is life. Thanks for allowing me to share.
    Skidmark, I would have given her the pistol but she didn't want any reminders of the incident. I later bought her another one so she could defend herself and her kids. She was quite good at doing it all by herself to begin with but lacked the tools to do so. The old adage, "Don't mess with a mama bear holds a LOT of weight when confronted with a life or death situation such as this.
    Last edited by Daniel_nimrod; 01-06-2015 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Left something Skidmark requested out.

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    Can't wait for the movie.

    OP knows that none here are movie producers, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Can't wait for the movie.

    OP knows that none here are movie producers, right?
    I wasn't looking for one david. Just because I can structure word sentences a lot better than most and tell a story like it happened does not mean it's not true.
    Maybe an author or two in your midst?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_nimrod View Post
    I wasn't looking for one david. Just because I can structure word sentences a lot better than most and tell a story like it happened does not mean it's not true.
    Maybe an author or two in your midst?
    Welcome to the forum Daniel.

    You will soon enough find out who and what the people here are - mostly just good solid freedom loving individuals who understand the meaning of personal responsibility. Occasionally someone may get out of line and some post nonsense - neither is well received.

    We prefer facts over emotions and providing cites is expected. Enjoy your time here and thanks for relating your experience.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Welcome. Nice screenplay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Welcome to the forum Daniel.

    You will soon enough find out who and what the people here are - mostly just good solid freedom loving individuals who understand the meaning of personal responsibility. Occasionally someone may get out of line and some post nonsense - neither is well received.

    We prefer facts over emotions and providing cites is expected. Enjoy your time here and thanks for relating your experience.
    Thanks so much for the welcome Grapeshot. Trust me when I say I'm not a "mall ninja" but to tell my life's story is VERY unbelievable so I won't even try it here. Let's just say if you put my name into your search engine you will find some interesting things about me. I don't get riled easy. My life speaks for itself and I've got the DD-214 to prove it. I was never special forces nor was I a super swat commando. I was an ordinary everyday soldier and a combat medic for 15 years with jobs here and there in law enforcement. I've been at the wrong places at the right times too many times to count. Ido not care if anybody believes me or not due to the fact that I'm not taking hot soapy showers with any one of you and it not my job to impress you. I love a good debate just like the next person and im a pretty decent guy.
    I came here to share a TRUE story. That is all, nothing more and nothing less. I like that there are people that have questions and will answer them in a very friendly way.
    Thanks again Grape shot and I hope to be a part of this forum in the future.
    Doc out

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Daniel -

    Thanks for sharing. Fortunately there are few stories here about self defense/defense of others. It probably has more to do with folks understanding "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things" than anything else. And no, I'm in no way suggesting you and Terri fit anywhere in there. It's kind of like the Four Rules, follow at least one of them and you should come out the other side relatively unscathed.

    If you are looking for stories of self defense, the NRA runs a monthly column and Steven Wenger http://www.spw-duf.info/ writes a daily newsletter that covers the subject. What I find lacking is "the rest of the story" - what happened next and how it finally ended. I first started out looking for tactics - but it seems most tactics boil down to "I pointed the gun and shot at the BG." From that I learned that what I want from trainers and training is how to shoot, not how to gunfight. When it comes to fighting, I think I want to follow Fairbain and Sykes http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Live-.../dp/1581606788 and Rex Applegate http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Bullets-G...s=jim+cirrillo and Jim Cirillo http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Bullets-G...cirrillorather than Jelly Bryce http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html or Bill Jordan http://www.darkcanyon.net/BillJordan_TopGun.htm only because the former group could teach others to do what they did.

    Anyhow, again "welcome" and I hope you stick around.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Daniel -

    Thanks for sharing. Fortunately there are few stories here about self defense/defense of others. It probably has more to do with folks understanding "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things" than anything else. And no, I'm in no way suggesting you and Terri fit anywhere in there. It's kind of like the Four Rules, follow at least one of them and you should come out the other side relatively unscathed.

    If you are looking for stories of self defense, the NRA runs a monthly column and Steven Wenger http://www.spw-duf.info/ writes a daily newsletter that covers the subject. What I find lacking is "the rest of the story" - what happened next and how it finally ended. I first started out looking for tactics - but it seems most tactics boil down to "I pointed the gun and shot at the BG." From that I learned that what I want from trainers and training is how to shoot, not how to gunfight. When it comes to fighting, I think I want to follow Fairbain and Sykes http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Live-.../dp/1581606788 and Rex Applegate http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Bullets-G...s=jim+cirrillo and Jim Cirillo http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Bullets-G...cirrillorather than Jelly Bryce http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html or Bill Jordan http://www.darkcanyon.net/BillJordan_TopGun.htm only because the former group could teach others to do what they did.

    Anyhow, again "welcome" and I hope you stick around.

    stay safe.
    Skidmark you are the bomb brother. That's exactly what I was looking for. I was ALSO looking for you to be one of those to throw an "I smell BS" remark out at me. I'm truly surprised and a whole lot relieved you didn't because I really enjoyed the way you went after them. Yes I will def look up those references. Again thanks for welcoming me.
    Doc out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_nimrod View Post
    I wasn't looking for one david. Just because I can structure word sentences a lot better than most and tell a story like it happened does not mean it's not true.
    Maybe an author or two in your midst?
    Ha ha .... I just love reading these stories .. but I prefer movies...i'm lazy...

    Welcome to the forum !

    Remember, everything in moderation...

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    Welcome to OCDO!

    Thank you for posting citations with your story. I am to take this correctly that this happened in 1997?
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Welcome to OCDO!

    Thank you for posting citations with your story. I am to take this correctly that this happened in 1997?
    Yes Walking Wolf. May 28 1997 or there abouts the day after Memorial Day I believe. This happened on that Tuesday in the Creek Forrest Duplex in Okmulgee Oklahoma.
    Thank you as well for welcoming me.
    Doc out

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    Welcome to OCDO and greetings from sunny, dry Arizona Daniel_nimrod!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_nimrod View Post
    Yes Walking Wolf. May 28 1997 or there abouts the day after Memorial Day I believe. This happened on that Tuesday in the Creek Forrest Duplex in Okmulgee Oklahoma.
    Thank you as well for welcoming me.
    Doc out
    If everything occurred as you remember it (not calling you a liar, just want to soften up this next part), then it seems like this lady was close to signing her own death certificate by not only refusing to accept self defense tools, but almost, ALMOST, being so reluctant as to suggest the "firing into the ground" as a good compromise. This after she saw firsthand that the threat of punishment for breaking the law did not dissuade her ex.

    Hopefully this lady learned a lifelong lesson which will result in a long life as well. (couldn't help myself there)

    I believe it goes without saying what I think of the dispatcher and the detective, given my opinion on those who would seek to disarm those who don't enjoy "professional" armed protection, and those who punish the individuals who've chosen not to be defenseless.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 01-06-2015 at 10:42 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    It is easy to advise a citizen in distress to not resort to force when that advice comes over the phone. It would be nice if dispatchers would advise responding cops similarly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Thank you for sharing that. I must admit it was suspenseful, but the ending was at least on the good side. I hope you at least had a part in that officer's lack of LEO employment and didn't just let that go. I wish I could hear of discipline on the dispatcher side, too. She could have very easily been just as bloodguilty as anyone.

    (And thank you for the paragraphs. I wouldn't have read it without them.)
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-07-2015 at 11:09 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    She's very lucky that the gun was not loaded with lightweight JHP bullets. They may not have been as effective as the hardballs it was actually loaded with. Very interesting story and thanks for sharing! Most impressive is how accurately she shot without any training at all - or so it seems.

    You undoubtedly helped saved her life and the life of her children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Thank you for sharing that. I must admit it was suspenseful, but the ending was at least on the good side. I hope you at least had a part in that officer's lack of LEO employment and didn't just let that go. I wish I could hear of discipline on the dispatcher side, too. She could have very easily been just as bloodguilty as anyone.

    (And thank you for the paragraphs. I wouldn't have read it without them.)
    Mac, I don't know if I did or not have any influence however I failed to mention that this was the town I was born and raised in.
    The assistant police Cheif at that time was my brother-in-law but holds no bearing trust me. I did NOT let it go.
    When handed the firearm I completely lost my cool. I remember looking up at him while he fidgeted around and taking my time to gather my words. I asked him calmly why he thought it necessary to engrave the slide and put his initials on it and why was the weapon not in the safe but in his personal wall locker? He simply stated that "Standard operating Procedure" was to engrave the information on the item so that it does not get lost at a later time. To which I explained that every police agency since the beginning of existence used the "Standard operating Procedures of TWO agencies. That being NYPD and LAPD. Nowhere in their procedures have they EVER used a technique such as that. You tag it and bag it and you put it into the evidence safe NOT IN YOUR PERSONAL WALL LOCKER. Nor do you load it with your personal self defense ammo. He started blubbering about me being wrong to which my brother-in-law, having followed us down into the squad room, told him only ONE thing, "Be careful what you say, he was a police officer as well and KNOWS procedure."
    I plead my case to city hall and that was all I heard of the matter.
    they DIDNT tell me whether or not his being fired had anything to do with the matter and I didn't ask.
    I later sold the weapon to my Army recruiter for $300. He somehow liked the idea that it had a history.
    Say what you will about a Ruger p-95 but I remember that gun as being extremely accurate for such a cheap cost.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    She's very lucky that the gun was not loaded with lightweight JHP bullets. They may not have been as effective as the hardballs it was actually loaded with. Very interesting story and thanks for sharing! Most impressive is how accurately she shot without any training at all - or so it seems.

    You undoubtedly helped saved her life and the life of her children.
    Now Now you will get the FMJ vs HP debate going again...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    She's very lucky that the gun was not loaded with lightweight JHP bullets. They may not have been as effective as the hardballs it was actually loaded with. Very interesting story and thanks for sharing! Most impressive is how accurately she shot without any training at all - or so it seems.

    You undoubtedly helped saved her life and the life of her children.
    Truth,
    I don't know whether JHP rounds would have been a good idea or a bad one really. Hardball rounds certainly did the trick yes but Tony still had enough life in him to make it to the back wall of the apartment and if he wanted to, could have used the knife he had for one final death blow. In all of this I failed to mention that fact. Tony was armed with a knife. The newspaper also failed to mention that fact as did the police department making the statement to the news.
    As for me saving her life and that of the children. Terri never forgave me for not telling her that "Shooting to stop the threat" would lead to Tony's death. Correct me if I'm wrong but any normal human would know that shooting at someone at center mass would undoubtedly cause serious damage and or death.
    I don't know if Terri is just trying to feel better about having taken his life by putting some blame on me or what but if that's the case I will shoulder that responsibility for her if she needs it.
    The shot placement is as stated. Yes very impressive. I have to say I and the detectives were amazed at the accuracy of that weapon under such extreme conditions. She had never before shot a weapon and the detectives wouldn't believe it. They kept asking about that.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_nimrod View Post
    Truth,
    I don't know whether JHP rounds would have been a good idea or a bad one really. Hardball rounds certainly did the trick yes but Tony still had enough life in him to make it to the back wall of the apartment and if he wanted to, could have used the knife he had for one final death blow. In all of this I failed to mention that fact. Tony was armed with a knife. The newspaper also failed to mention that fact as did the police department making the statement to the news.
    As for me saving her life and that of the children. Terri never forgave me for not telling her that "Shooting to stop the threat" would lead to Tony's death. Correct me if I'm wrong but any normal human would know that shooting at someone at center mass would undoubtedly cause serious damage and or death.
    I don't know if Terri is just trying to feel better about having taken his life by putting some blame on me or what but if that's the case I will shoulder that responsibility for her if she needs it.
    The shot placement is as stated. Yes very impressive. I have to say I and the detectives were amazed at the accuracy of that weapon under such extreme conditions. She had never before shot a weapon and the detectives wouldn't believe it. They kept asking about that.
    Unless the central nervous system is damaged almost all handgun ammo is ineffective at immediate stops. Any stops that do happen are IMO mostly psychological. IOW they stop because they realize they have been shot, jacked up drug users do not have enough sense to stop when shot. IMO JHP going through a barrier would have been less effective.

    As Austin Powers might say "Penetration baby!".
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    IMO JHP going through a barrier would have been less effective.
    Yep! No way would a little 115gr JHP have done the trick going through a coffee table. MAYBE a 147gr JHP. The FMJ made all the difference IMO.


    If he was shot directly in the heart, anyone who deer hunts knows that a deer is still able to run full speed for about 50-100yds before the blood loss becomes so great that the animal loses consciousness. Loss of blood pressure can drop an animal in its tracks but is not likely. A FMJ will also not cause much of a wound track so shot placement is key.

    First time shooter takes out a meth'd out grown man attacker with FMJ 9mm through a coffee table. Needless to say I am more impressed the more I think about this.
    Last edited by The Truth; 01-07-2015 at 02:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Yep! No way would a little 115gr JHP have done the trick going through a coffee table. MAYBE a 147gr JHP. The FMJ made all the difference IMO.


    If he was shot directly in the heart, anyone who deer hunts knows that a deer is still able to run full speed for about 50-100yds before the blood loss becomes so great that the animal loses consciousness. Loss of blood pressure can drop an animal in its tracks but is not likely. A FMJ will also not cause much of a wound track so shot placement is key.

    First time shooter takes out a meth'd out grown man attacker with FMJ 9mm through a coffee table. Needless to say I am more impressed the more I think about this.
    It's all about shot placement followed by penetration, the rest is just hype. That is why medium frame 380 are so effective, even the smaller frames. They are shot from a short distance making accuracy a simple matter of pointing a finger. OTH wild shots, with most of them missing with large calibers do little to stop a threat. 9mm fmj is very effective when the shots are placed correctly and there is penetration.

    Probably the only caliber capable of stopping with one shot without a doubt would be .50 bmj, but I want to see the person who can handle a handgun made for it.

    In 45 acp for SD I carry 200 grain lead RNFP loaded to a mild velocity of 850 fps. Recoil in a 1911 is about equal or less than a 9mm 1911. The gun is capable of 2 inch groups at 25 yards so I have every confidence in the ammo. In fact I have been moving away from any hollow point carry except for in the summer months. More and more is coming out that hollow points do not always penetrate enough to reach the target. And at the high rate of velocity needed for expansion, so is recoil increased. If a threat does not stop I would rather have that extra control to put the next shot in the noggin.

    Remember that according to DW, Brown did not stop his bumrush until shot in the brain twice. Out of 11 shots only six connected, 4 were ineffective due to poor shot placement, and five simply vanished into the neighborhood.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-07-2015 at 02:44 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  24. #24
    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Why would a 9mm not penetrate a coffee table? No one has any idea what the coffee table was made out of or how thick it was. If it was lightweight wood which is more likely than heavy oak/cherry, a 9mm HP or FMJ would run through it just fine and still do some good damage to whoever is on the other side of it.

    There are so many variables none of us can remotely say the caliber or barrier had any affect either way.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It's all about shot placement followed by penetration, the rest is just hype. That is why medium frame 380 are so effective, even the smaller frames. They are shot from a short distance making accuracy a simple matter of pointing a finger. OTH wild shots, with most of them missing with large calibers do little to stop a threat. 9mm fmj is very effective when the shots are placed correctly and there is penetration.

    Probably the only caliber capable of stopping with one shot without a doubt would be .50 bmj, but I want to see the person who can handle a handgun made for it.SNIP....
    +1 to shot placement.

    Also, does this count?


    Add.
    In regards to the expansion of .45 ACP, 9mm, etc., I go by the (admittedly fanboi-sounding, though with some practical merit) mantra of "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 ACP won't shrink". By this, I mean that a 9mm MAY reach expansion velocity (~1,000 FPS, IIRC?) and MAY reach the bad guy with sufficient kinetic energy to expand (thick coats and other barriers come to mind), but even a 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP round will undoubtedly be a larger diameter than an unexpanded 9mm HP round.
    Looking around for a good defensive round for when I carry a 9mm handgun, I'm beginning to lean towards one suggestion I found of alternating HP with hardball ammo after the top 3 HP in the magazine (one HP in the chamber).
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 01-07-2015 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Made Addendum its own post
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