A restraining order that didn't work.

WalkingWolf · Jan 7, 2015

Daniel_nimrod said:
Truth,
I don't know whether JHP rounds would have been a good idea or a bad one really. Hardball rounds certainly did the trick yes but Tony still had enough life in him to make it to the back wall of the apartment and if he wanted to, could have used the knife he had for one final death blow. In all of this I failed to mention that fact. Tony was armed with a knife. The newspaper also failed to mention that fact as did the police department making the statement to the news.
As for me saving her life and that of the children. Terri never forgave me for not telling her that "Shooting to stop the threat" would lead to Tony's death. Correct me if I'm wrong but any normal human would know that shooting at someone at center mass would undoubtedly cause serious damage and or death.
I don't know if Terri is just trying to feel better about having taken his life by putting some blame on me or what but if that's the case I will shoulder that responsibility for her if she needs it.
The shot placement is as stated. Yes very impressive. I have to say I and the detectives were amazed at the accuracy of that weapon under such extreme conditions. She had never before shot a weapon and the detectives wouldn't believe it. They kept asking about that.

Unless the central nervous system is damaged almost all handgun ammo is ineffective at immediate stops. Any stops that do happen are IMO mostly psychological. IOW they stop because they realize they have been shot, jacked up drug users do not have enough sense to stop when shot. IMO JHP going through a barrier would have been less effective.

As Austin Powers might say "Penetration baby!".

The Truth · Jan 7, 2015

WalkingWolf said:
IMO JHP going through a barrier would have been less effective.

Yep! No way would a little 115gr JHP have done the trick going through a coffee table. MAYBE a 147gr JHP. The FMJ made all the difference IMO.

If he was shot directly in the heart, anyone who deer hunts knows that a deer is still able to run full speed for about 50-100yds before the blood loss becomes so great that the animal loses consciousness. Loss of blood pressure can drop an animal in its tracks but is not likely. A FMJ will also not cause much of a wound track so shot placement is key.

First time shooter takes out a meth'd out grown man attacker with FMJ 9mm through a coffee table. Needless to say I am more impressed the more I think about this.

WalkingWolf · Jan 7, 2015

The Truth said:
Yep! No way would a little 115gr JHP have done the trick going through a coffee table. MAYBE a 147gr JHP. The FMJ made all the difference IMO.

If he was shot directly in the heart, anyone who deer hunts knows that a deer is still able to run full speed for about 50-100yds before the blood loss becomes so great that the animal loses consciousness. Loss of blood pressure can drop an animal in its tracks but is not likely. A FMJ will also not cause much of a wound track so shot placement is key.

First time shooter takes out a meth'd out grown man attacker with FMJ 9mm through a coffee table. Needless to say I am more impressed the more I think about this.

It's all about shot placement followed by penetration, the rest is just hype. That is why medium frame 380 are so effective, even the smaller frames. They are shot from a short distance making accuracy a simple matter of pointing a finger. OTH wild shots, with most of them missing with large calibers do little to stop a threat. 9mm fmj is very effective when the shots are placed correctly and there is penetration.

Probably the only caliber capable of stopping with one shot without a doubt would be .50 bmj, but I want to see the person who can handle a handgun made for it.

In 45 acp for SD I carry 200 grain lead RNFP loaded to a mild velocity of 850 fps. Recoil in a 1911 is about equal or less than a 9mm 1911. The gun is capable of 2 inch groups at 25 yards so I have every confidence in the ammo. In fact I have been moving away from any hollow point carry except for in the summer months. More and more is coming out that hollow points do not always penetrate enough to reach the target. And at the high rate of velocity needed for expansion, so is recoil increased. If a threat does not stop I would rather have that extra control to put the next shot in the noggin.

Remember that according to DW, Brown did not stop his bumrush until shot in the brain twice. Out of 11 shots only six connected, 4 were ineffective due to poor shot placement, and five simply vanished into the neighborhood.

Kopis · Jan 7, 2015

Why would a 9mm not penetrate a coffee table? No one has any idea what the coffee table was made out of or how thick it was. If it was lightweight wood which is more likely than heavy oak/cherry, a 9mm HP or FMJ would run through it just fine and still do some good damage to whoever is on the other side of it.

There are so many variables none of us can remotely say the caliber or barrier had any affect either way.

Rusty Young Man · Jan 7, 2015

WalkingWolf said:
It's all about shot placement followed by penetration, the rest is just hype. That is why medium frame 380 are so effective, even the smaller frames. They are shot from a short distance making accuracy a simple matter of pointing a finger. OTH wild shots, with most of them missing with large calibers do little to stop a threat. 9mm fmj is very effective when the shots are placed correctly and there is penetration.

Probably the only caliber capable of stopping with one shot without a doubt would be .50 bmj, but I want to see the person who can handle a handgun made for it.SNIP....

+1 to shot placement.

Also, does this count?

[video=youtube;nMkiDguYtGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMkiDguYtGw[/video]

Add.
In regards to the expansion of .45 ACP, 9mm, etc., I go by the (admittedly fanboi-sounding, though with some practical merit) mantra of "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 ACP won't shrink". By this, I mean that a 9mm MAY reach expansion velocity (~1,000 FPS, IIRC?) and MAY reach the bad guy with sufficient kinetic energy to expand (thick coats and other barriers come to mind), but even a 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP round will undoubtedly be a larger diameter than an unexpanded 9mm HP round.
Looking around for a good defensive round for when I carry a 9mm handgun, I'm beginning to lean towards one suggestion I found of alternating HP with hardball ammo after the top 3 HP in the magazine (one HP in the chamber).

Daniel_nimrod · Jan 7, 2015

The Truth said:
Yep! No way would a little 115gr JHP have done the trick going through a coffee table. MAYBE a 147gr JHP. The FMJ made all the difference IMO.

If he was shot directly in the heart, anyone who deer hunts knows that a deer is still able to run full speed for about 50-100yds before the blood loss becomes so great that the animal loses consciousness. Loss of blood pressure can drop an animal in its tracks but is not likely. A FMJ will also not cause much of a wound track so shot placement is key.

First time shooter takes out a meth'd out grown man attacker with FMJ 9mm through a coffee table. Needless to say I am more impressed the more I think about this.

I never really thought about that. I am now questioning my selection of ammo. I wonder if maybe I need to stagger a few hardball "Just in case" to help defeat these types of barriers in the future. Having reloaded with hardball ammo might have been the best thing I did prior to this incident and if that's the case I can't help but feel that God played a role in this thought process because I normally load AT THE RANGE. Not prior to getting there.
I guess it's good I finally talk about this with others to gain perspectives and knowledge. I have always just kept it to myself really. Granted I wrote the story for "It happened to me" a few years ago but I've never discussed it on any forum to get anybody's take on the matter. I've never really wanted to debate it with others before either until now. It's helping me immensely at this point.
I just wish Terri could get healing from all of this.

WalkingWolf · Jan 7, 2015

Rusty Young Man said:
+1 to shot placement.

Also, does this count?
[video=youtube;nMkiDguYtGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMkiDguYtGw[/video]

That is pretty kewl, wonder how much that thing weighs.

The Truth · Jan 7, 2015

Kopis said:
Why would a 9mm not penetrate a coffee table? No one has any idea what the coffee table was made out of or how thick it was. If it was lightweight wood which is more likely than heavy oak/cherry, a 9mm HP or FMJ would run through it just fine and still do some good damage to whoever is on the other side of it.

There are so many variables none of us can remotely say the caliber or barrier had any affect either way.

Actually I can fairly confidently say that a lightweight JHP is less effective through a coffee table, no matter what it's made of, than a FMJ. It's common sense and a mild understanding of terminal ballistics. A JHP is designed to expand which disperses kinetic energy. A FMJ is not designed to expand so most of the kinetic energy stays with the bullet making it a much more effective penetrator.

For this very reason I carry 185gr hollow points in my .460R for self defense (very minimal penetration comparatively) so as to decrease the chance of overpenetration and a Manslaughter charge for killing an innocent bystander, while I carry a lead hard cast flat nosed 255gr slug when I'm hiking or in the woods because well, 255gr HCFN has been known to penetrate multiple FEET through live animals with little to no deformation of the bullet. A FMJ shares similar properties.

Each bullet has its applications with many variables considered.

Daniel_nimrod · Jan 7, 2015

There would not be a "wound channel" on the 50 BMG. The amount of pure "HATE" you would be sending down range would be enough to make any BG a pink vapor mist.
I don't know if sending super sonic "volks wagons" downrange at a BG trying to break into your dwelling is even legal.
Wow, I like that weapon but I'm not trying to take out a mortgage when I go to the range either.
I think I will stick to my 9mm and hope for the best outcome.
Doc out

Rusty Young Man · Jan 7, 2015

Daniel_nimrod said:
There would not be a "wound channel" on the 50 BMG. The amount of pure "HATE" you would be sending down range would be enough to make any BG a pink vapor mist.
I don't know if sending super sonic "volks wagons" downrange at a BG trying to break into your dwelling is even legal.
Wow, I like that weapon but I'm not trying to take out a mortgage when I go to the range either.
I think I will stick to my 9mm and hope for the best outcome.
Doc out

:lol: I can't even begin to imagine the damage the Thunder would do.

Rusty Young Man · Jan 7, 2015

WalkingWolf said:
That is pretty kewl, wonder how much that thing weighs.

I read it was only a concept gun made to show off a company's recoil piston system. Give me a sec...

Daniel_nimrod said:
I never really thought about that. I am now questioning my selection of ammo. I wonder if maybe I need to stagger a few hardball "Just in case" to help defeat these types of barriers in the future. Having reloaded with hardball ammo might have been the best thing I did prior to this incident and if that's the case I can't help but feel that God played a role in this thought process because I normally load AT THE RANGE. Not prior to getting there.
I guess it's good I finally talk about this with others to gain perspectives and knowledge. I have always just kept it to myself really. Granted I wrote the story for "It happened to me" a few years ago but I've never discussed it on any forum to get anybody's take on the matter. I've never really wanted to debate it with others before either until now. It's helping me immensely at this point.
I just wish Terri could get healing from all of this.

*I added this to my other post on this thread (the one with the video), but didn't see others had posted*:
In regards to the expansion of .45 ACP, 9mm, etc., I go by the (admittedly fanboi-sounding, though with some practical merit) mantra of "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 ACP won't shrink". By this, I mean that a 9mm MAY reach expansion velocity (~1,000 FPS, IIRC?) and MAY reach the bad guy with sufficient kinetic energy to expand (thick coats and other barriers come to mind), but even a 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP round will undoubtedly be a larger diameter than an unexpanded 9mm HP round.
Looking around for a good defensive round for when I carry a 9mm handgun, I'm beginning to lean towards one suggestion I found of alternating HP with hardball ammo after the top 3 HP in the magazine (one HP in the chamber).

Rusty Young Man · Jan 7, 2015

Whoa.

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/01/the_thunder_50_.html

Airborne Combat Engineer blog said:
At that time, Triple Action, LLC of Logan, Utah was looking for a manufacturer to license to produce it for sale. (Actually, the company was really promoting its recoil reduction system.) The designer is Janos Lakatos.
Will production be announced at this year's 2006 Shot Show, or will this go the way of an interesting design exercise? We'll see in a dozen days. [Answer: No. It was never seen again, and the company no longer exists. Wonder who has the prototype?]

http://gearsofguns.com/50-bmg-thunder/

Gears of Guns said:
Specs

Caliber: 50 caliber Browning Machine Gun (BMG)
Type: Single Shot Handgun
Action: Scissor breach(swing-down breech)/separate cocking lever/separate case ejector
Empty Weight: 12lbs
Barrel Length:13.2″
Overall Length: 16.9″
Trigger pull: 1 to 12 lbs. – Factory set to specifications

MAC702 · Jan 7, 2015

Daniel_nimrod said:
Mac, I don't know if I did or not have any influence however I failed to mention that this was the town I was born and raised in.
The assistant police Cheif at that time was my brother-in-law but holds no bearing trust me. I did NOT let it go.
When handed the firearm I completely lost my cool. I remember looking up at him while he fidgeted around and taking my time to gather my words. I asked him calmly why he thought it necessary to engrave the slide and put his initials on it and why was the weapon not in the safe but in his personal wall locker? He simply stated that "Standard operating Procedure" was to engrave the information on the item so that it does not get lost at a later time. To which I explained that every police agency since the beginning of existence used the "Standard operating Procedures of TWO agencies. That being NYPD and LAPD. Nowhere in their procedures have they EVER used a technique such as that. You tag it and bag it and you put it into the evidence safe NOT IN YOUR PERSONAL WALL LOCKER. Nor do you load it with your personal self defense ammo. He started blubbering about me being wrong to which my brother-in-law, having followed us down into the squad room, told him only ONE thing, "Be careful what you say, he was a police officer as well and KNOWS procedure."
I plead my case to city hall and that was all I heard of the matter.
they DIDNT tell me whether or not his being fired had anything to do with the matter and I didn't ask.
I later sold the weapon to my Army recruiter for $300. He somehow liked the idea that it had a history.
Say what you will about a Ruger p-95 but I remember that gun as being extremely accurate for such a cheap cost.
Paragraphs make life easier don't they?

Cops like that aren't going to have but only a few "isolated incidents" anyway, but I'm glad to hear you made sure your story got to a significant number of higher-ups. Many of us don't have the connections to see that happen, so it's nice to hear that those that do often take advantage of them, to help the rest of us.

I've had a couple P-95's pass through my hands, and they have all been excellent, accurate, comfortable, and uber-reliable. Good choice for a defensive firearm when concealability is not the highest priority.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 7, 2015

Thank you for sharing OP.

Proof positive a piece of paper is no protection.

Daniel_nimrod · Jan 8, 2015

Rusty Young Man said:
I read it was only a concept gun made to show off a company's recoil piston system. Give me a sec...

*I added this to my other post on this thread (the one with the video), but didn't see others had posted*:
In regards to the expansion of .45 ACP, 9mm, etc., I go by the (admittedly fanboi-sounding, though with some practical merit) mantra of "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 ACP won't shrink". By this, I mean that a 9mm MAY reach expansion velocity (~1,000 FPS, IIRC?) and MAY reach the bad guy with sufficient kinetic energy to expand (thick coats and other barriers come to mind), but even a 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP round will undoubtedly be a larger diameter than an unexpanded 9mm HP round.
Looking around for a good defensive round for when I carry a 9mm handgun, I'm beginning to lean towards one suggestion I found of alternating HP with hardball ammo after the top 3 HP in the magazine (one HP in the chamber).

So I'm thinking the same here. I've seen the video where the cop jumps on the hood of a car and empties a mag into the windshield of the perp that's trying to run everybody over effectively ending any and all resistance. Now I'm beginning to believe that stacking hardball penetrators into a mag isn't a bad idea now that I've thought about it. I've never truly thought it through and therefore never did any stacking but now see the wisdom behind it. One should always be aware of their backstop no matter what they're shooting at.
I've ALWAYS thought a .45 was a great round however practicing with that round just isn't in my budget. I've owned several .45's and loved every one of them. I've also loved a good .357 sig but at a $1.00 a round it's just not something I can afford.
I don't know how much .45 ammo is going for nowadays but it wasn't cheap either.
Thanks for the input. I'm learning new ideas everyday.
Doc out

The Truth · Jan 8, 2015

I don't want to hijack the thread or get too off topic, and you may have already inferred this from my posts, but I personally see 3 different levels of penetration/performance necessary for optimal terminal ballistics with different aspects of pistol carry:

1. (public or city carry) Minimal penetration with hot loaded lightweight JHP

2. (home defense/yard carry) Moderate to strong penetration with hot loaded moderate to heavy JHP or light caliber FMJ.

3. (woods/county carry)
[A] Best penetration possible with heavy, hot loaded JHP for medium game
Most penetration possible for large game and predators with hot loaded soft points, hard cast, or FMJ.

YMMV, my $.02

Grapeshot · Jan 8, 2015

With all due respect - we are getting off-topic with ammo and ammo type replies.

Better to take that to a new thread....as if that horse hasn't been well thrashed yet.

Daniel_nimrod · Jan 8, 2015

MAC702 said:
Cops like that aren't going to have but only a few "isolated incidents" anyway, but I'm glad to hear you made sure your story got to a significant number of higher-ups. Many of us don't have the connections to see that happen, so it's nice to hear that those that do often take advantage of them, to help the rest of us.

I've had a couple P-95's pass through my hands, and they have all been excellent, accurate, comfortable, and uber-reliable. Good choice for a defensive firearm when concealability is not the highest priority.

Mac,
I had and have NO connections with that department or any others. Like I said just because my brother-in-law was the assistant Cheif plays NO bearing in this situation. All I had was the fact that the officer didn't have my weapon in an evidence locker and removed it from his personal wall locker as well as his personal ammo loaded into my weapon. That and the fact he had never returned my calls and I had to physically go to the department to confront him about my firearm were the only reasons I believe he was held accountable. When I say I didn't have any connections I mean to say that some people no matter their authority just don't have a spine and will not do a thing to do what's right no matter their affiliation to your family.
I went to the city hall and filed a complaint and left it at that. Whether it played into the fact that he was later fired I have no idea but would like to think so.
I also think that this officers actions were not a one off and he had other complaints against him.
Thanks for the response
Doc out

The Truth · Jan 8, 2015

Grapeshot said:
With all due respect - we are getting off-topic with ammo and ammo type replies.

Better to take that to a new thread....as if that horse hasn't been well thrashed yet.

I'll desist. Although I agree it's somewhat off-topic, proper bullet selection can save lives (in the case of OP) and also keep one from being subject to legal consequences for negligence.

WalkingWolf · Jan 8, 2015

OK one last off topic remark, first rule and second rule of self defense with a handgun.

1) Have a handgun accessible
2) Have ammo for handgun

A restraining order that didn't work.

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