What's up with LEO comments like "I'm a SWORN officer. You're not."

WalkingWolf said:

Actually a police officer is not sworn until a member of the public swears at them.

I was sworn many times...

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Lol!

WalkingWolf said:

Some people are just nervous around police officers. I think I would have said "Ya know, I have heard people say they are nervous around cops, you should be in civilian clothes to calm their fears."

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That's an interesting line on inquiry, WalkingWolf. I may incorporate part of that into future encounters. I'll have to ponder it a bit, though, as it's never been my intention to confront or tick off others.

skidmark said:

It's probably time you stepped up to the podium and explained to us just exactly what we should be doing about all this.

stay safe.

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Well this is a podium and education is the first step.

sudden valley gunner said:

Well this is a podium and education is the first step.

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Yep, education. I've made the same point. Most people don't understand how our republic is supposed to work or what's the purpose of a comstitution. These things are not taught in school. How do we reverse this?

sudden valley gunner said:

Well this is a podium and education is the first step.

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Please educate me on the differences, if any, between the Bill of Complaint written in the Decleration of Independence and the current political situation in the United States of America.

Then please educate me on the responses to the current political situation that you see as being most likely to be effective in resolving the problemsyou might have disclosed from the request above.

stay saf.

skidmark said:

It's probably time you stepped up to the podium and explained to us just exactly what we should be doing about all this.

stay safe.

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Well, if ya don't know by now what we should be doing about all of this why would you accept any answer regarding the question from SVG? It's crap (childish?) questions (challenges?) like this that make me think that my elders are not as on the ball as I thought, or would like.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread derailment...

OC for ME said:

Well, if ya don't know by now what we should be doing about all of this why would you accept any answer regarding the question from SVG? It's crap (childish?) questions (challenges?) like this that make me think that my elders are not as on the ball as I thought, or would like.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread derailment...

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And responses like this from you and SVG are not crap (childish) answers?

I'm deadly serious - everybody says "We should do something about ...." but when you ask them exactly what we should "do" they come back with a response akin to yours.

I've been on the front lines trying to bring things back to the way they were intended to be. Possibly for longer than you have been alive. I've used every technique and trick in the book, short of outright violence,that I know to achieve that goal. It's pretty obvious I'm out of ideas that actually work, so I'm asking you and SVG and the rest of the folks like you to quit playing sophomoric games and tell me (the rest of us?) what the heck we should be doing instead of what we have been doing.

I'm waiting.

Yes, that's a challenge. Step up and meet it.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

And responses like this from you and SVG are not crap (childish) answers?

I'm deadly serious - everybody says "We should do something about ...." but when you ask them exactly what we should "do" they come back with a response akin to yours.

I've been on the front lines trying to bring things back to the way they were intended to be. Possibly for longer than you have been alive. I've used every technique and trick in the book, short of outright violence,that I know to achieve that goal. It's pretty obvious I'm out of ideas that actually work, so I'm asking you and SVG and the rest of the folks like you to quit playing sophomoric games and tell me (the rest of us?) what the heck we should be doing instead of what we have been doing.

I'm waiting.

Yes, that's a challenge. Step up and meet it.

stay safe.

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LOL.....

Oh I see unless someone has the answers to the problems and have utopian methods to solve all our problems. Educating and learning doesn't matter? That whole line of logic is fallacious and as OC brought out childish.

I want to avoid violence too, so we talk we learn, we tell others that how it is isn't how it should be, hopefully we avoid the blood.

The government has gone way beyond the tyrannical acts of the DOI. It ignores the constitution that was supposed to bind it. Having a defeatist attitude is part of the problem, criticizing others for doing what they can, like speaking up about it is part of the problem.

Oh yea and by the way I did answer your question, you ignored it and now have changed the parameters of what was being discussed. Interesting.

georg jetson said:

Yep, education. I've made the same point. Most people don't understand how our republic is supposed to work or what's the purpose of a comstitution. These things are not taught in school. How do we reverse this?

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Don't know how we reverse it other than tirelessly trying, even when others complain about it.

skidmark said:

And responses like this from you and SVG are not crap (childish) answers?

I'm deadly serious - everybody says "We should do something about ...." but when you ask them exactly what we should "do" they come back with a response akin to yours.

I've been on the front lines trying to bring things back to the way they were intended to be. Possibly for longer than you have been alive. I've used every technique and trick in the book, short of outright violence,that I know to achieve that goal. It's pretty obvious I'm out of ideas that actually work, so I'm asking you and SVG and the rest of the folks like you to quit playing sophomoric games and tell me (the rest of us?) what the heck we should be doing instead of what we have been doing.

I'm waiting.

Yes, that's a challenge. Step up and meet it.

stay safe.

Click to expand...

Not how this works...sorry.

Are there some novel and radically different methods, that you have apparently exhausted, to bring things back to the way they were in VA, than here in MO, or WA? If so, please enlighten us cuz it seems our (MO and WA) things apparently are somewhat lacking in the desired results department (MO has gotten better, markedly so). The ones we use here in MO take years and years of beating the pavement outside the state house and schmoozing elected statehouse critters.

Back handed insults are easily detected, I have been around the block a few times. If you were to consider some of my way past postings, which you have no burden to do, you'd likely be able to deduce a rough age for me. No biggie.

The appeal to seniority (yes, I made this fallacy up) is also noted.

sudden valley gunner said:

True law and rights are not altered regardless of being written or not.

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But failure to write them down, makes it much more difficult to retain agreement on them.

Remember, the real purpose of a properly written contract is not to win a lawsuit. Rather, it is to avoid any need for a suit by making sure all parties to the contract remember what the contract actually is and thus maintain proper expectations and performance.

sudden valley gunner said:

One reason for the revolution was the Brits in the Americas felt their constitutional rights were not being upheld. Seems like writing them down was no real protection either, especially since the chain of the consitutions seemed not to bind those whom it was intended to bind.

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As I noted, writing them down has helped us do better at preserving our rights than have the British without a written constitution. In addition to losing their RKBA almost entirely, the Brits have now started to lose their rights against self-incrimination as the courts are now allowed to instruct jurors that they may make inferences about a defendant's refusal to answer questions in "terrorism" cases.

So while our written constitution is not perfect at protecting our liberties, it is a much better than the alternative.

sudden valley gunner said:

That poor 9th amendment were it recognizes our rights are not limited.

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It is a bit ironic to complain about elected/government officials ignoring or misunderstanding the constitution when you turn around and make such a grossly inaccurate statement. The 9th amendment doesn't say our rights are "not limited". It simply makes clear that the enumeration of certain rights, doesn't preclude other rights.

And wouldn't you know it, but if we look to the courts we can find a fair number of non-enumerated rights that have been found in the "penumbra" of the constitution. IMO, too many of these have been tied to the 4th amendment, rather than the 9th, and I don't believe some of them are properly federal rights at all. But the courts have certainly found some rather significant, non-enumerated rights that are protected against majority will.

Charles

skidmark said:

And responses like this from you and SVG are not crap (childish) answers?

I'm deadly serious - everybody says "We should do something about ...." but when you ask them exactly what we should "do" they come back with a response akin to yours.

I've been on the front lines trying to bring things back to the way they were intended to be. Possibly for longer than you have been alive. I've used every technique and trick in the book, short of outright violence,that I know to achieve that goal. It's pretty obvious I'm out of ideas that actually work, so I'm asking you and SVG and the rest of the folks like you to quit playing sophomoric games and tell me (the rest of us?) what the heck we should be doing instead of what we have been doing.

I'm waiting.

Yes, that's a challenge. Step up and meet it.

stay safe.

Click to expand...

+1.

I've spent nearly 30 years listening with not only an open mind, but also hope against hope, that some of the "sovereign citizen" or "income taxes and speed limits don't really apply" rhetoric was actually workable. I've never seen real evidence it is.

I've spent almost the last 20 years actively working to effect positive change on RKBA here in Utah and have been privileged to be a small part of some rather significant improvements. Over that time I've seen far too many who bitch and complain about how things are or are not being done, but who do nothing to materially assist. Admittedly, once upon a time in my youth, I complained about how the NRA was damaging rather than helping our RKBA. But I fairly quickly got involved and actually did something about it.

In my experience, until we find a few dozen pro-RKBA billionaires who want to bankroll massive public education/propaganda campaigns including not just news media, but also popular media, we are left primarily with the simple, but long game of grassroots political activism.

We work to educate legislators. And teaching them about RKBA and guns is important. But the most important thing is to educate them as to the fact that their votes in February (when the Utah legislature meets) directly affect how gun owners vote in November. Utah has enjoyed a now unique political process that has allowed a smallish number of motivated individuals to exert disproportionately high influence in elections, and so gun owners have done very well the past 20 or so years. That system is now under attack.

But in any event, peaceful political activism, along with a few well-planned lawsuits are a long game. We're talking decades, not years or months. It is the "eternal vigilance" that Jefferson told us was necessary to preserve liberty.

I suspect the same methods could work on non-RKBA issues if only there were groups motivated enough to do it. But that is off topic for this board as nothing about RKBA requires a person to also support libertarian, anarchist, conservative, or liberal philosophies in other areas. The nature of private RKBA is to put some limit on total government power. But we gun owners can mightily disagree on where to put those limits.

I just see too many expecting some magic, silver bullet to make government the way they think it should be without any regard to the reality of the world.

And when it comes to radical change, even in what we might all agree is the "right" direction, I am often drawn back to the words of the Declaration of Independence: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

Thoughtful, gradual change is almost always going to yield better results, longer term, than sudden revolution of our culture. That includes not only violent revolution, but even peaceful revolution of courts presuming to make fundamental changes, or even legislatures moving too fast. With good reason is our entire system of government designed to make change difficult and slow.

Charles

The sworn officer bit is not about his swearing, it's the perception of people seeing him OC versus Joe Shoe OCing. People expect him to OC so don't get scared at his OC'D weapon ( they get scared because of the badge and the unaccountability behind it)

Where as, in their minds at least, a panic would ensue if anyone without a badge is seen carrying a gun because people expect to only see cops in uniform with one... because we all know that cops don't shoot innocent unarmed people right?

Baked on Grease said:

The sworn officer bit is not about his swearing, it's the perception of people seeing him OC versus Joe Shoe OCing. People expect him to OC so don't get scared at his OC'D weapon ( they get scared because of the badge and the unaccountability behind it)

Where as, in their minds at least, a panic would ensue if anyone without a badge is seen carrying a gun because people expect to only see cops in uniform with one... because we all know that cops don't shoot innocent unarmed people right?

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There is a thread about a dog and a now dead woman. A NYPD kind of thing. There will be a civil settlement that will assuage the survivors of the now dead woman...and I'm sure the dog will get over it also.

Sworn Officers are a indispensable check against anarchy. The good that is LE far out weighs the bad. Unless you are subject to the bad.

utbagpiper said:

But failure to write them down, makes it much more difficult to retain agreement on them.

Remember, the real purpose of a properly written contract is not to win a lawsuit. Rather, it is to avoid any need for a suit by making sure all parties to the contract remember what the contract actually is and thus maintain proper expectations and performance.



As I noted, writing them down has helped us do better at preserving our rights than have the British without a written constitution. In addition to losing their RKBA almost entirely, the Brits have now started to lose their rights against self-incrimination as the courts are now allowed to instruct jurors that they may make inferences about a defendant's refusal to answer questions in "terrorism" cases.

So while our written constitution is not perfect at protecting our liberties, it is a much better than the alternative.



It is a bit ironic to complain about elected/government officials ignoring or misunderstanding the constitution when you turn around and make such a grossly inaccurate statement. The 9th amendment doesn't say our rights are "not limited". It simply makes clear that the enumeration of certain rights, doesn't preclude other rights.

And wouldn't you know it, but if we look to the courts we can find a fair number of non-enumerated rights that have been found in the "penumbra" of the constitution. IMO, too many of these have been tied to the 4th amendment, rather than the 9th, and I don't believe some of them are properly federal rights at all. But the courts have certainly found some rather significant, non-enumerated rights that are protected against majority will.

Charles

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Yet almost immediately the founders broke the written constitution.

Not being precluded or not numbered pretty much is the same as not having a limit.

There's the problem you thing there is a thing called "federal rights" and this is what the BOR grants.

OC for ME said:

Not how this works...sorry.

Are there some novel and radically different methods, that you have apparently exhausted, to bring things back to the way they were in VA, than here in MO, or WA? If so, please enlighten us cuz it seems our (MO and WA) things apparently are somewhat lacking in the desired results department (MO has gotten better, markedly so). The ones we use here in MO take years and years of beating the pavement outside the state house and schmoozing elected statehouse critters.

Back handed insults are easily detected, I have been around the block a few times. If you were to consider some of my way past postings, which you have no burden to do, you'd likely be able to deduce a rough age for me. No biggie.

The appeal to seniority (yes, I made this fallacy up) is also noted.

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+1

skidmark said:

Please educate me on the differences, if any, between the Bill of Complaint written in the Decleration of Independence and the current political situation in the United States of America.

Then please educate me on the responses to the current political situation that you see as being most likely to be effective in resolving the problemsyou might have disclosed from the request above.

Click to expand...

skidmark said:

I'm deadly serious - everybody says "We should do something about ...." but when you ask them exactly what we should "do" they come back with a response akin to yours.

I've been on the front lines trying to bring things back to the way they were intended to be. Possibly for longer than you have been alive. I've used every technique and trick in the book, short of outright violence,that I know to achieve that goal. It's pretty obvious I'm out of ideas that actually work, so I'm asking you and SVG and the rest of the folks like you to quit playing sophomoric games and tell me (the rest of us?) what the heck we should be doing instead of what we have been doing.

I'm waiting.

Yes, that's a challenge. Step up and meet it.

Click to expand...

You bet.

As a person who is currently short on money but long on time, I spend that time educating others. More specifically, I disciple them, often whether they want to be discipled or not.

Whether they're a politician or a report, a neighbor or a co-worker, a friend or stranger on the street, if I hear or read about them saying something Constitutional which makes no sense, I call them on it. I stand firm and stick my neck out. Although I do my best to avoid being slapped with a negative label, I've alienated one couple who've been friends with our family for about eighteen years, and have been un-friended on Facebook a couple of dozen times. I still have 600+ FB friends, though, so at least I haven't alienated everyone.

With 29 years on message forums, if I've developed any skill whatsoever, it's writing well and having the curious knack of turning faulty arguments on their ear. Not exactly the best way to win friends and influence people, but it sure helps when I'm sending information to politicians who share my Constitutional convictions.

Skid, this is nothing you haven't heard, and you're already doing this. I would simply encourage you to keep at it. I might be able to seriously change three people's minds this year, but if everyone who believes in our Constitution did the same, we wouldn't have much to worry about from those who are too far gone to change their minds.

I don't that there's any one key to being successful in this endeavor. I'd recommend:

1. Be persistent. Never give up.

2. Be relentless. If it's worth tackling the first time around, it's worth attacking again and again.

3. Be clear and concise. If you can expose someone's argument in fifty words, don't take two hundred to sugar-coat it.

4. Be nice. I'm infamous on Facebook for calling certain groups people "blithering idiots," and they are, but I try to be nice about it. At least I don't cuss, rant, and rave. Something like, "The blithering idiot DWS sure had nice hair in that pic, didn't she?"

5. Be patient. If the masses were able to figure this stuff out for themselves, they would have. The problem is, most are simply no equipped to puzzle over the six unemployment factors used by the U.S. Department of Labor or the difference between M1 and M3 when it comes to our nation's money supply. Most people can't explain the basic laws of supply and demand, much less give you a scenario where the demand curve loops back on itself. What? Two levels of demand for the same supply and price? Yep.

It's not that everyone is stupid. It's that many of them are simply ignorant. They've never learned the basics behind why our Founding Fathers established the form of government they did and why it has worked rather well until recently. Most people think most politicians know what they're doing with respect to managing our nation, yet politicians do not know what they're doing. They often cause more harm than good.

Our nation has some serious issues, but reinventing the wheel isn't the solution. Following the blueprint is the solution, and it's about as simple a blueprint as any government on planet Earth will ever get.

The question is, "Will we?"

I'll keep on posting in the hopes of changing enough minds to make that a reality. If I fail and our country collapses into ruin, oh well. I know how to pack a bag and travel.

sudden valley gunner said:

True law and rights are not altered regardless of being written or not.

One reason for the revolution was the Brits in the Americas felt their constitutional rights were not being upheld. Seems like writing them down was no real protection either, especially since the chain of the consitutions seemed not to bind those whom it was intended to bind. That poor 9th amendment were it recognizes our rights are not limited.

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Me thinks the history is a little wrong here.... Revolution first starting 1776 after a "Declararation"---- Constitution wasn't written/ratified until 1791!


Not busting chops just "clarifying"!

Now if you'ld said "rights that later became Constitutional", I'd have not made this post! And I realize you probably were refering to British "rights" and I was refering to the United States "Constitutional" rights.

JoeSparky said:

Me thinks the history is a little wrong here.... Revolution first starting 1776 after a "Declararation"---- Constitution wasn't written/ratified until 1791!


Not busting chops just "clarifying"!

Now if you'ld said "rights that later became Constitutional", I'd have not made this post! And I realize you probably were refering to British "rights" and I was refering to the United States "Constitutional" rights.

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I see the confusion. There was the american constitutions (two of them). And there were the British constitution, some of it written much of it not. The Brits living in the Americas felt the king and parliment were not respecting their constitutional rights as Brits. Also referred to their rights as Englishmen.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/politics/constit.htm

utbagpiper said:

But failure to write them down, makes it much more difficult to retain agreement on them.

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I can't tell that writing them down makes them any easier to retain. If it did, this OC movement wouldn't even exist, and gun control wouldn't exist.

KBCraig said:

I can't tell that writing them down makes them any easier to retain. If it did, this OC movement wouldn't even exist, and gun control wouldn't exist.

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England, Canada, Australia, and other British Commonwealths failed to write it down. How are they doing with their rights of Englishmen to bear arms relative to we in the USA?

Writing them down doesn't guarantee there won't be problems, or fights to be fought any more than carrying a gun guarantees you won't be victimized. But in both cases, it can shift the odds more in your favor.

Charles