Employer telling me I can no longer bring a weapon to work. Can they do that?

My employer is working on a new employee handbook. It know states "Employees are prohibited from possessing or bring weapons onto Property..." Can they do this in the State of Washington. They also added the verbiage that ... anyone else on property would be in violation of this. Help I would like some info before I fight this and not sign the new policy.

Short answer, if it is a privately owned business, then yes they can.

However, I'm fairly sure that case law will back this up, they can't say jack about you lawfully possessing a firearm or weapon in your personal vehicle on their property. Use the old military moto... don't ask, don't tell.

Grim_Night said:

Short answer, if it is a privately owned business, then yes they can.

However, I'm fairly sure that case law will back this up, they can't say jack about you lawfully possessing a firearm or weapon in your personal vehicle on their property. Use the old military moto... don't ask, don't tell.

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That depends on the State. I know that in Utah an employer was perfectly free to ban guns (and most anything else) from their parking lots (even if it was carried out of sight in your own car parked there) until a couple of years back when we managed to pass what we call "Parking Lot Preemption." This law specifically limits the property and contract rights of employers by preventing them (with rare exceptions) from maintaining or enforcing any policy against having a lawful firearm (or religious material) inside one's personal car that is parked in the employee parking lot. We worked to pass it after three guys were fired for violating a "no gun" policy in a company parking lot. They sued for wrongful termination and the case went all the way to our State Supreme Court which held that in the absence of laws limiting the ability of employers to have such a policy, the policy was valid and enforceable. So we passed a law. It was a tough sell and many who traditionally support RKBA are also very big supporters of property and contract rights. We made the case this was not a contest between property and "gun rights", but was rather a classical case of property rights endangering the right to defend innocent life (and to practice religion).

Don't ask, don't tell can work for a very long time as few employers make a habit of searching employees' cars. But if the gun ever does come to light, it could cost an employee his job (or other discipline). There is also the issue of personal integrity for those who sign an employment agreement to comply with company policies. Parking somewhere other than the company parking lot is one solution, if that is feasible.

I know nothing of the laws of Washington, but I suspect that workers' comp does nothing to provide financial reimbursement should an employee be the victim of a violent crime while making his normal commute to or from work, unarmed because of a company "no-gun" policy that extends to the parking lot.

Sadly, unless the company is owned by an individual, odds of persuading the company to change the policy are probably low. Employment law has become so complex that I believe most companies with full time, in-house HR departments belong to various HR organizations. These provide prototype policies intended to minimize liability and I suspect that such prototypes all flow from a small number of law firms in places like NYC.

It was about 15 years ago when a former employer inexplicable changed from having no policy at all regarding guns, to a "no gun" policy that extended to the parking lot. When I asked the VP of HR about it, he assured me they had no intention of banning guns from the parking lot, just from the buildings themselves as even he personally kept a gun in his car to use for after work shooting events. But the language in the policy was clear, guns were banned in the parking lot, and nobody was willing to alter the policy at all. They simply made no effort to enforce it in the parking lot as per his stated intent. In that case, I didn't feel that having a legal gun in the car was actually a violation of my agreement to abide their policy as I was abiding the stated intent.

Charles

Employer

I work in a Church in Seattle.

Snot00011 said:

My employer is working on a new employee handbook. It know states "Employees are prohibited from possessing or bring weapons onto Property..." Can they do this in the State of Washington. They also added the verbiage that ... anyone else on property would be in violation of this. Help I would like some info before I fight this and not sign the new policy.

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Open carry when you can, conceal carry when you can't. I carry a Ruger lcp at work, easy to conceal. Its your life, and I find that more important than a job, so if your employer does not allow firearms, well then say nothing and just keep on working, it will just be your little secret

Grim_Night said:

Short answer, if it is a privately owned business, then yes they can.

However, I'm fairly sure that case law will back this up, they can't say jack about you lawfully possessing a firearm or weapon in your personal vehicle on their property. Use the old military moto... don't ask, don't tell.

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A short search of RCWs http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ brings up nothing that would stop a private employer from instituting such a policy. Grim_Night might be right, but most cases of trespass are not decided in courts of record or appealed to courts of record, which means they are not going to show up as "case law". Criminal Trespass in the 2nd Degree carries a max penalty of 90 days in jail and a $1,000 fine. http://www.johntlaw.com/criminal-trespass-2nd-degree-in-washington-state

If you fight the policy - before or after it is written - you make yourself a target. The employer cannot force you to allow them to search/inspect your privately owned vehicle but you may find that refusing to grant permission is sufficient grounds to either prohibit you from bringing a vehicle on their property or terminating your employment for cause.

Refusing to sign the new policy is sufficient cause for termination.

Now you know. The ultimate decision on how to proceed from here is up to you.

stay safe.

Yes.

This is WA, an employer can fire you for any reason. They are a private entity, and can make any rule they want to. If you carry on the property you won't be breaking any WA law, but they can fire you for it. I work at a store at the gun counter, and even I can't carry. The customers can, but not the employees.

Ask them if the handbook constitutes a contract .. they'll say no.

But that's a side issue .. you are an at-will employee; they can fire you for anything that does not violate a well established public policy (like making a complaint to OSHA, etc...very narrow exceptions).

So unless you wanted to be a test case to expand the exceptions to the at-will doctrine you should follow the policy. If not, expect to be fired and expect to lose any court case (they may settle for some cash just to avoid 40K in litigation costs).

As is commonly known, your constitutional rights only restrict the actions of government against you. It therefore follows that a private employer can make any rules they want, the constitution notwithstanding.

NavyLCDR said:

Actually, yes they can. What they can't do is search the vehicle to find the gun but they can certainly prohibit firearms on property they are in control of, both inside vehicles and outside vehicles. If they can see the gun sitting on the seat, though, they could use that as evidence that the employee violated the employee's handbook.

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Lacking statutory limits or contractual agreements (including collective bargaining agreements) to the contrary, nothing will prevent the employer from requiring employees to consent to searches of their bags, cars, etc, while on company property, as a condition of continuing employment. And lacking statutory or contractual limits to the contrary, nothing prevents an employer from adding such a policy at any time they want to after someone has started employment.

Randomly searching vehicles is a good way to really kill employee moral. So I've never seen it happen. But it could happen, and especially if there is ever any cause to do so....including a fellow employer getting all nervous about whether the resident gun nut has scary guns in his car in the company parking lot in violation of company policy.

Utah's Parking Lot Preemption Law protects most employees from adverse employment action for having a gun (or religious items) in their private cars even if parked in the company parking lot. An employer can still require employees to allow a search of their car, and can terminate employees who refuse. But if they happen to find a gun (or Bible, or Jehovah Witness tracts, or a Quran, etc) in the car, they cannot take any employment action as a result. Of course, if they find company property that shouldn't be there....

But lacking a similar statute, employees either have to comply with no-guns policies even in parking lots, or they are relying on not getting caught and should consider the total of their conduct so as to minimize the chances of their policy violation coming to light.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

Lacking statutory limits or contractual agreements (including collective bargaining agreements) to the contrary, nothing will prevent the employer from requiring employees to consent to searches of their bags, cars, etc, while on company property, as a condition of continuing employment. And lacking statutory or contractual limits to the contrary, nothing prevents an employer from adding such a policy at any time they want to after someone has started employment.

Randomly searching vehicles is a good way to really kill employee moral. So I've never seen it happen. But it could happen, and especially if there is ever any cause to do so....including a fellow employer getting all nervous about whether the resident gun nut has scary guns in his car in the company parking lot in violation of company policy.

Utah's Parking Lot Preemption Law protects most employees from adverse employment action for having a gun (or religious items) in their private cars even if parked in the company parking lot. An employer can still require employees to allow a search of their car, and can terminate employees who refuse. But if they happen to find a gun (or Bible, or Jehovah Witness tracts, or a Quran, etc) in the car, they cannot take any employment action as a result. Of course, if they find company property that shouldn't be there....

But lacking a similar statute, employees either have to comply with no-guns policies even in parking lots, or they are relying on not getting caught and should consider the total of their conduct so as to minimize the chances of their policy violation coming to light.

Charles

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Actually my employer argues that since the policy is stated and all employees sign a document that certifies that they have read it, that bringing a gun to work is Criminal Trespass and will be charged as such.

Per WA state law, it is not trespass when:
(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises;

First off, the premises is not open to the public, but even if it was you have not complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access.

Also, while you have the right to not allow them to search your vehicle, they can still fire you for that refusal.

It should be noted I work for one of the more anti-gun employers in this state

If ya like getting a paycheck from that employer...

I would not work for a commie employer who wants to search my vehicle or demand that no guns in the vehicles. I like to go shooting during lunch sometimes.

I would venture to say a large majority of businesses have policies such as this especially larger corporations. At the same time, they aren't out searching your car. Just keep it in the trunk, glovebox etc.

Kopis said:

I would venture to say a large majority of businesses have policies such as this especially larger corporations. At the same time, they aren't out searching your car. Just keep it in the trunk, glovebox etc.

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+1

Right Wing Wacko said:

Actually my employer argues that since the policy is stated and all employees sign a document that certifies that they have read it, that bringing a gun to work is Criminal Trespass and will be charged as such.

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That is harsh.

Right Wing Wacko said:

Also, while you have the right to not allow them to search your vehicle, they can still fire you for that refusal.

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Yup.

Charles

Kopis said:

I would venture to say a large majority of businesses have policies such as this especially larger corporations. At the same time, they aren't out searching your car. Just keep it in the trunk, glovebox etc.

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That is what works for most folks, most of the time. There are some who feel that personal integrity requires them to abide such policies and I would not try to persuade anyone otherwise.

I would add that if someone is going to do this, he needs to keep his mouth shut about guns, about going shooting over lunch, etc. He also needs to keep his nose especially clean in every regard at work. In other words, avoid giving the employer any reason whatsoever to search your car in the first place.

And if one finds himself in a spot where the employer is looking for a reason to terminate employment (not that a reason is necessarily needed, but it sure makes HR types feel better to have a solid reason than to risk any kind of wrongful termination suit), he may consider sterilizing the car until such time as he either secures new employment, or conditions improve with the current boss.

Charles

Yes. They can (and many do). Although, I have a difficult time understanding how it would constitute criminal trespass. I don't think that dog would hunt.

rapgood said:

Yes. They can (and many do). Although, I have a difficult time understanding how it would constitute criminal trespass. I don't think that dog would hunt.

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I wish I had purchased the book. I was browsing legal case books and found a case like this involving UPS. UPS fired someone for having a gun in their car.

UPS lost. Since the general public had access to the parking area, they could not dictate what you did or did not have in your car.

IT was the UPS in Redmond my shop steward at the time was there for the case. Some where between Sep 1998 and Sep 2003. Might it be referenced in Lexus Nexus?