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Thread: Open Carry at a Place of Worship: Can they ask you to leave?

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Open Carry at a Place of Worship: Can they ask you to leave?

    Hey guys, if you are a parishioner at a place of worship and you are open carrying, can they ask you to leave?

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Yes they can ask you to leave. Some churches allow carry during service some do not.

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    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Thanks Wolf! I might speak to them before I bring the gun in then as I'm new to the area. I don't want to frighten them.
    Last edited by Lafayette; 01-08-2015 at 07:15 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Churchs are private property - state statute forbiding carry in/on church property is extremely vague. "Good and sufficient reason" IMHO is my safety. Some CC at church services, weddings, and funerals.
    https://cursesfoiledagain2.wordpress...uns-in-church/

    Note that some churchs have K-12 schools as part of their physical plant.
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    I attend church regularly, and have been the Treasurer , as well as the Head Usher. I open carry whenever I can, concealed in the winter with a jacket on outside. Many churchgoers have seen me open carry other places, or know that I do. When I go to church I conceal either under a vest, or a sport jacket. Not my normal attire, so with a little thought I suspect some have figured it out. I'm not sure why exactly. I guess I see it as the one place where maybe it might bother some people that I know and care about? I haven't really nailed it down entirely, to be honest. People that I don't know, I care less about
    I suppose? As I said, still hashing it out.

    I know there are a half dozen others that CC regularly, I've never seen anyone OC, but personally I wouldn't have a problem with it. I have asked the last Elder on board what they are going to do when someone comes in OC and he did not really answer me. I said "it might be me."

    It's an interesting question. One I suspect many have not considered, nor really want to. Each state I'm sure is different somewhat, as well as each church in that state. In Wisconsin you can be asked to leave an establishment, and you are trespassing if you don't. But it has to be the owner, so I'm not sure who that would be in a church? The Pastor maybe, or the Elders?

    My thought is, if you ask they are going to say no. If you walk in OC your first time, that might go over less well than if they knew you maybe? Shouldn't, but probably would.

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    My thought is, if you ask they are going to say no. If you walk in OC your first time, that might go over less well than if they knew you maybe? Shouldn't, but probably would.
    I can appreciate where you are coming from and agree that in most cases this is the best route to take. However, I'm talking about going into a mosque, with a firearm, where I'm not known, right after terrorist attacks in Paris that have led to further attacks on mosques etc whilst I'm living in what is more rural Virginia than it is a city area, where most congregants will be of Iraqi Kurdish descent, already scarred from Saddam's regime and many of whom are refugees.

    It makes more sense in this case to take their sensibilities into consideration and work a smooth way around it, rather than scare them and scar them emotionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    I can appreciate where you are coming from and agree that in most cases this is the best route to take. However, I'm talking about going into a mosque, with a firearm, where I'm not known, right after terrorist attacks in Paris that have led to further attacks on mosques etc whilst I'm living in what is more rural Virginia than it is a city area, where most congregants will be of Iraqi Kurdish descent, already scarred from Saddam's regime and many of whom are refugees.

    It makes more sense in this case to take their sensibilities into consideration and work a smooth way around it, rather than scare them and scar them emotionally.
    Yeah, not to be disrespectful, but you got so much stuff going on there I'm not even going to offer an opinion now! I was picturing First Baptist I guess.

    If I were to offer an opinion it would be either you get shot on sight at the doorway, or you get recruited. But, since I'm not, I have no ideas. Let us know how it goes.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-09-2015 at 03:49 AM. Reason: fixed format

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    I open carry a my church during deer season I wear a suit and tie and the other Sundays of the year so it concealed. I know the pastor carries concealed under is suit coat. More a matter of dress then other wise.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    You can carry to a place of worship during a worsip service - self defense is "good and sufficient reason." http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-283 As private property you can be asked to remove your handgun or remove yourself.

    I applaud your plan. Just do not get caught up in even an implied understanding with anybody that you will be there to provide "security" to the facility or to those attending. There are a large number of hoops you must jump through to legally do that.

    Providing for your self defense allows you to also apply deadly force in defense of innocent third parties. There is no legal requirement that you do so, and I am not aware of any legal liability if you choose not to do so.

    If you make sure that anybody saying anything about you "being security" knows that you in fact are not "their" security you will probably stay out of trouble. You may even get to take some folks to the range and maybe convert a few folks to the notion of self defense.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I open carry a my church during deer season I wear a suit and tie and the other Sundays of the year so it concealed. I know the pastor carries concealed under is suit coat. More a matter of dress then other wise.
    If you wore a suit and tie to our church most would suspect you were the guest speaker, or at least you might get asked to pray! I'm "over dressed" with a sport jacket and jeans. I've noticed lots of hanging out shirts lately. Personally, I think that looks sloppy, but whatever, I think guys do it to try and hide their gut. I've decided to mostly open carry instead of changing the way I dress, with church being the one exception.

    I also have heard the security thing, I'm heading to you if something happens, I feel safer when your around, etc. I try to tactfully comment that I'm responsible for my own and my families' safety. I do consider my church to be my family, so there is maybe some grey area there I suppose? I hope it never comes to that, but I don't think you want to try and steal the offering in our church. I was talking to another guy last Sunday about exactly that, at the first shot it's going to be mass confusion I suspect.

    I find this topic of a lot of interest and look forward to seeing where it is going! Thanks for asking the question.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 01-08-2015 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    I can appreciate where you are coming from and agree that in most cases this is the best route to take. However, I'm talking about going into a mosque, with a firearm, where I'm not known, right after terrorist attacks in Paris that have led to further attacks on mosques etc whilst I'm living in what is more rural Virginia than it is a city area, where most congregants will be of Iraqi Kurdish descent, already scarred from Saddam's regime and many of whom are refugees.

    It makes more sense in this case to take their sensibilities into consideration and work a smooth way around it, rather than scare them and scar them emotionally.
    Is going into a mosque normal activity for you? If not, why would you be doing so now? If it is to defend one as a non-Muslim, you can do that from outside. If state laws allow guns in religious facilities, then it would be up to the mosque council.

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    If I were to offer an opinion it would be either you get shot on sight at the doorway, or you get recruited. But, since I'm not, I have no ideas. Let us know how it goes.
    Recruited for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    Is going into a mosque normal activity for you? If not, why would you be doing so now? If it is to defend one as a non-Muslim, you can do that from outside. If state laws allow guns in religious facilities, then it would be up to the mosque council.
    I am a Muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I also have heard the security thing, I'm heading to you if something happens, I feel safer when your around, etc. I try to tactfully comment that I'm responsible for my own and my families' safety. I do consider my church to be my family, so there is maybe some grey area there I suppose? I hope it never comes to that, but I don't think you want to try and steal the offering in our church. I was talking to another guy last Sunday about exactly that, at the first shot it's going to be mass confusion I suspect.
    I don't even think I'd comment on it to them, if they assumed it then so be it. I will make sure I don't imply that I am security for the mosque.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I find this topic of a lot of interest and look forward to seeing where it is going! Thanks for asking the question.
    No problems!
    Last edited by Lafayette; 01-09-2015 at 03:57 AM.

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    It is interesting how many Sconies have opined here, and the diverse congregational structures mentioned.

    In my Lutheran Church, the congregation holds title in the name of the council. The Pastor is an employee.

    I serve month long stints as lector (through Advent and Christmas this year!), usher and Communion minister. I always wear a dress shirt, coat and tie or a nice sweater and a fedora and overcoat now when it's cold.

    I know that other congregants are armed and others know that I am armed (I had a costume malfunction when the lining of my blazer caught my CCW grip).

    My arm reminds me of my John 15:13 promise to be first. I am very much guided by my reading of, and brief correspondence with, Charl van Wyk, author of Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense, his story of the Saint James Church, Kenilworth, SA massacre in 1993. When my mind wanders during an uninspiring homily, it will likely be to tactical considerations.

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    Who said anything about being recruited?��

    I have no opinion. ��

    I was really just trying to give the two extremes that I could come up with off the top of my head. I really know nothing about a mosque. In the Christian faith churches, I suspect you would have both extremes as well, maybe not shot but asked to leave from some. Maybe fewer where you were welcomed with open arms.

    My buddy and I rode motorcycles to a Mennonite church one Sunday, on a trip. His bike is REALLY loud and windows were open, so they heard us coming no doubt. We were met in the parking lot by three guys. Asked if we were welcome and if the service was in English. Yes to both. We went inside and sat down, men on one side, women and small children on the other. After the service we were kind of surrounded by the men, got asked a lot of questions. All very friendly and genuine I thought. Felt kind of like they were protecting the womenfolk from us a little. We got asked over to a Deacons house for lunch, but declined. I kinda wish we had gone, would have been interesting. We were unarmed. I don't think they got many visitors.

    About 3 months later I burned out a wheel bearing and one of the three guys stopped to check on me, that was kind of ironic.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 01-09-2015 at 08:39 AM.

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    Well, there are Amish and there are Amish, from plain folk to Old Order.

    I used to ride 'bicycle' (Vanguard LWB HPV by Greg Peeks' Longbikes) among the Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch in South Central Pennsylvania where I always felt welcome in public places and where I would not intrude on anyone's privacy. The Amishmen leased land from my 'English' host.

    I enjoyed their inspired considerations for their beliefs, the telephone booths across the street from the home, the team of four pulling a gasoline powered mower, the push rod from an English neighbor to power the well pump.

    On topic more or less, Sheriff Bunny Welsh of Chester County issued my PA non-resident.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-09-2015 at 09:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Well, there are Amish and there are Amish, from plain folk to Old Order.

    I used to ride 'bicycle' (Vanguard LWB HPV by Greg Peeks' Longbikes) among the Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch in South Central Pennsylvania where I always felt welcome in public places and where I would not intrude on anyone's privacy. The Amishmen leased land from my 'English' host.

    I enjoyed their inspired considerations for their beliefs, the telephone booths across the street from the home, the team of four pulling a gasoline powered mower, the push rod from an English neighbor to power the well pump.

    I was wrong and corrected Amish to Mennonite. This group drove cars, but nothing fancy. Area (central Wi) has both Amish and Mennonite. Somebody told us when we moved there if you try to figure out the differences it will drive you crazy. We had horse drawn buggies, steel wheeled tractors, horse drawn balers with gas powered engines, you name it. The kids all seemed to have cell phones, but landlines in the homes were frowned upon. Phone in the barn was ok I've heard. Something about not being "connected" to the worldly things, but I would see a cell phone as kind of pushing that. Don't know if they had internet access.

    I enjoy talking to people about their beliefs. Some seem kind of strange, but I can see how if you grew up in Utah as a Mormon you would think my beliefs odd as well.

    We ordered new kitchen cabinets from a Mennonite company. Watching the women draw up everytthing3D on the computer was kinda weird, but the hickory cabinets and the kitchen turned out fantastic!

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    LOL My first wife, my sailor's dream was Mormon from Pocatello, Idaho.
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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I was really just trying to give the two extremes that I could come up with off the top of my head. I really know nothing about a mosque. In the Christian faith churches, I suspect you would have both extremes as well, maybe not shot but asked to leave from some. Maybe fewer where you were welcomed with open arms.
    I agree with you there. In this case however I'm dealing with many people who were not born here and don't fully understand the principle of the right to free speech let alone the right to keep and bear arms. In all likelihood they've had to deal with secret police and are fearful of people exercising their rights because doing so back in their home countries was generally accompanied with torture, detentions, exile and summary executions.

    I'll tread lightly and make it easier for them.
    Last edited by Lafayette; 01-09-2015 at 09:29 AM.

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL My first wife, my sailor's dream was Mormon from Pocatello, Idaho.
    First wife as in one at a time, or first wife in a polygynous marriage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I enjoy talking to people about their beliefs. Some seem kind of strange, but I can see how if you grew up in Utah as a Mormon you would think my beliefs odd as well.
    Speaking as a Mormon who grew up mostly outside Utah, I firmly believe that everyone has beliefs that you could call "odd", especially Utah Mormons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    First wife as in one at a time, or first wife in a polygynous marriage?
    Growing up, I saw many people ask my dad how many wives he had, after they found out that we were Mormons. His usual answer was either "enough", "all I can handle", or "one too many".
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    First wife as in one at a time, or first wife in a polygynous marriage?
    Might be better to ask who initiated the action to disolve the union - not I, says me.

    Then there is this guy:
    Fighting Poppa Joe Morrissey lessens (he thinks) his problem(s) by not marrying them - no religious or state endorsement.

    "The 17-year-old receptionist? The one he recruited from a foot-and-ankle office to come work in his firm? She’s 18 and pregnant. A prosecutor said Morrissey is “perhaps” the father. The bachelor already has three other kids by three different women."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...54a_story.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Might be better to ask who initiated the action to disolve the union - not I, says me.

    Then there is this guy:
    Fighting Poppa Joe Morrissey lessens (he thinks) his problem(s) by not marrying them - no religious or state endorsement.

    "The 17-year-old receptionist? The one he recruited from a foot-and-ankle office to come work in his firm? She’s 18 and pregnant. A prosecutor said Morrissey is “perhaps” the father. The bachelor already has three other kids by three different women."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...54a_story.html
    Why hasn't this cull been sterilized to cleanse the gene pool? Last thing we need is Idiot Joe III.

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Thumbs down ask/don't ask?

    My life experience says "don't ask if u can carry in church." I did, where I have gone and been a member for over ten years, was head usher at one time, and was told "No" a month after I made the request. Thought it was the honorable thing to do. Wish now I had never asked.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Why hasn't this cull been sterilized to cleanse the gene pool? Last thing we need is Idiot Joe III.
    Think he has all girl chillins - might have something to do with what is in his genes.


    Things could be worse though.......you could be assigned to provide security for him
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Think he has all girl chillins - might have something to do with what is in his genes.


    Things could be worse though.......you could be assigned to provide security for him
    Tim Kaine was bad enough. I would have to refuse that assignment. (Something I have never done before)

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