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Thread: Needing advice with upcoming legislation - input from other states requested

  1. #1
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    Needing advice with upcoming legislation - input from other states requested

    I'm working with the newly elected Arkansas legislation; we are looking to repeal many if not all the restricted carry places. What I would like is how does your state cover restricted areas either by statute or by not having a statute against.

    Can you carry into government buildings; if so what laws allow or doesn't allow? Is it up to the municipality or is there state preemption, can you conceal carry or open carry.


    Needing Ideas.

    Thank you for any help on this idea.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-09-2015 at 06:01 AM. Reason: Added to title
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    §66.0409 (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.

    Note that there is no enforcement enabled. My municipality has, for instance, the tackiest gun-buster signs on the publicly owned community center without enacting an ordinance, but it is within the school zone, so moot.

    §175.60(16) PROHIBITED ACTIVITY.
    (a) Except as provided in par. (b), neither a licensee nor an out−of−state licensee may knowingly carry a concealed weapon, a weapon that is not concealed, or a firearm that is not a weapon in any of the following places:
    1. Any portion of a building that is a police station, sheriff’s office, state patrol station, or the office of a division of criminal investigation special agent of the department.
    2. Any portion of a building that is a prison, jail, house of correction, or secured correctional facility.
    3. The facility established under s. 46.055.
    4. The center established under s. 46.056.
    5. Any secured unit or secured portion of a mental health institute under s. 51.05, including a facility designated as the Maximum Security Facility at Mendota Mental Health Institute.
    6. Any portion of a building that is a county, state, or federal courthouse.
    7. Any portion of a building that is a municipal courtroom if court is in session.
    8. A place beyond a security checkpoint in an airport.

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    From Virginia:

    State preemption: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915 applies right now only to units of local government. There is a bill http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...151+sum+HB1390 in this year to make it apply to state agencies as well.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308 through http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.013 for the laws on concealed carry. Open carry is the default mode in Virginia (no law against it) so all you need to do is be aware of those laws controlling presence of a firearm (schools, secure areas of jails/police stations, etc.) and who are prohibitted persons (pretty much follows the federal gun control laws).

    There is the Administrative Code http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+men+SRR where colleges/universities and the like hide there "No Guns" rules. If we get state agency preemption that is going to make those sections null and void.

    stay safe.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Do not prohibit carry into government buildings, bars, churches, etc.

    Make sure you have a state preemption law in place so that the local cities cannot pass laws that are more restrictive than the state laws so that the citizens/visitors don't get arrested for violating some local ordnance that is different from state law.

    Make the state a Constitutional Carry. Get rid of the NEED for a license to carry concealed.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    --snipped-
    Make sure you have a state preemption law in place so that the local cities cannot pass laws that are more restrictive than the state laws so that the citizens/visitors don't get arrested for violating some local ordnance that is different from state law.
    Plus do not allow "grandfathering" of municipal ordinances, resulting in a checkerboard square of laws.

    Include state agencies, departments, et cetera. Make sure that any exceptions are truly needed/valid i.e. jails, penitentiaries, court rooms.

    Try for quasi-public terminology wherein guns would not be restricted. Quasi-public= private property that invites the public to do business/attend w/o requiring membership, treated as if they were public property for this purpose. This will be a very hard sell, but a noble goal.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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  6. #6
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    As others have pointed out, to minimize the number of off limits locations you need both a short list of actual, legit off limit locations, and strong State preemption to prevent local governments, school districts, transit authorities, counties, recreational districts, sewer districts, etc from creating a patchwork of laws.

    Utah’s State Preemption law is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah Code
    76-10-500. Uniform law.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or

    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.

    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.
    It is backed up by this tidbit in the Definitions Section for this Chapter:

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah Code
    76-10-501. Definitions.
    As used in this part:

    (20) "State entity" means a department, commission, board, council, agency, institution, officer, corporation, fund, division, office, committee, authority, laboratory, library, unit, bureau, panel, or other administrative unit of the state.

    It took a Utah Supreme Court Decision to persuade a couple of State owned colleges/universities that they are actually subject to State Preemption and had to permit lawful possession of firearm on campus. Between this decision and our preemption law, school districts cannot have anti-RKBA employment policies and so any teacher or other school employee with a permit to carry is free to carry on-the-job.

    Our State preemption prevents our Wildlife Resource Office from passing rules against RKBA while hunting, during hunting season, etc. They can properly limit what can be used for hunting, but cannot interfere with what you carry if you don’t use it for hunting. IOW, perfectly legal to carry a self-defense firearm while on the bow hunt, you just can't use the gun for hunting.

    Excepting federal law, any government official claiming that there is a “no gun” area somewhere in Utah, has to be able to point to a specific grant of authority from the State Legislature to create and maintain that secure area. Secure areas must be prominently posted (with one notable exception), and must provide secure storage for persons legally entering the secure area.

    Our list of off limits locations is contained here and here plus our definition of school zones.

    Off limit locations include jails/prisons (not publicly accessible areas of the police station, but just jails/prisons), secure mental facilities, the sterile area of commercial airports, and court rooms. In addition to these, a private residence may post as a “gun free” area and guns are then prohibited under State law. Ditto for Houses of Worship. Due to a unique situation in Utah, Houses of Worship are allowed to give notice in a less than prominent manner if they want to.

    That is it for State areas. Gun bans at other private locations carry no force of law except as may be imposed by general trespassing laws if someone refuses to leave if asked.

    A couple of things to be careful of:

    1-We made the mistake of allowing jails and courts and such to create secure areas if they wanted to, but imposed the requirement to have storage if they did. Our judges balked at this and refused to install store, thus not being legislatively defined off limits locations. They then turned around and used their co-equal branch powers to declare guns were not permitted in courts. Rather than a 3rd degree (lowest level) felony for violating a statutory secure area, violators are subject to simple contempt of court. But, there is no storage. My suggestion is to not give any options in statute. Stake out secure areas and mandate storage.

    2-Our State Gun Free School Zone law includes not just K-12 as does federal law, but also includes all post secondary schools including colleges, universities, trade/tech schools, etc as well as pre-schools and day cares. A permit to carry exempts one from this gun ban, but it makes permit free carry at colleges impossible. We did remove the 1000’ rule from our State version of GFSZ law recently, though the federal 1000’ rule is still in place of course. I suggest not including anything beyond K-12 in any State GFSZ law, or even eliminating the law entirely letting the feds enforce their own laws. You should consider not including anything off actual school property if you do have to retain a State GFSZ law.

    Best of luck.

    Charles Hardy
    GOUtah!

    Edit: I always forget that trains and buses are off limits to guns (or maybe just concealed guns, some debate) in Utah unless the person has a permit since I have a permit and really avoid buses and trains. But violation is a felony. There is a bill filed this year to remove that prohibition.
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 01-13-2015 at 06:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    In Nevada, we have a state preemption that prohibits the local governments from having possession laws, and such. However, we made a big mistake in that, unlike Florida, our preemption statute has no penalty clause. And yes, the local governments routinely break state law, but there is nothing we can do about it. There are many local government buildings and parks which have become "no firearms" zones, in violation of state law. So, put a penalty clause in your preemption statutes, and make it very clear that there is no such thing as a "grandfathered" ordinance.

    We are also about to have one of our most pro-freedom legislative sessions ever, so hopefully we are finally going to fix ours this summer.

    One of the better parts of our preemption statute, however, is that it is worded to reserve such power to the legislature itself, not just to "the state" which would include administrative codes by state agencies.
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-09-2015 at 08:35 PM.
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  8. #8
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    The penalty for violation of State preemption is a good idea. I suggest it is imposed against the individual(s) creating, maintaining, or attempting to enforce the illegal gun ban in violation of State preemption.

    I should perhaps point out a couple of legal facts about Utah that might affect how you want to draft your laws if your State is different.

    First of all, in Utah, the State is the original, sovereign government entity that derives power from the people. Cities, counties, and all other government entities are merely political subdivisions created by the State for managerial convenience and/or to allow some degree of local diversity, but always at the pleasure of the State itself. The State was created by the people; and the State then created all political subdivisions as wholly subservient entities. There is no such thing as "home rule" for any city in Utah. Maybe this is common across the nation. But I can imagine there my be cases where the legal/constitutional relationship between a State and some local governments is different.

    Secondly, our State Attorney General is a (State) constitutional officer and the chief LEO in the State. While local prosecutors are elected, they (or their office) have some subservience to the State AG and his office in terms of enforcement of laws.

    Charles

  9. #9
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    I have to say, I'm very much in love with the way the Utah laws are written. Very nice. Here in Michigan, we have very similar laws, but nothing so detailed, and its taking a few lawsuits to straighten things out. OC'ers just won a case against the Capitol Area District Library in Lansing (our state cap for those that dont know) which affirmed the fact that as a local public authority, they had no right to enact a ban on firearms in the libraries. Next up is a school district somewhere in the state. That case is pending. Ok, so, relevant links for MI laws:

    Pre-emption: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(12c...e=mcl-123-1102

    Prohibited Areas and Exemptions: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(kpc...e=mcl-750-234d

    Short version: We can open carry most places w/out a license, a few normal restrictions like courts, hospitals, schools etc, unless you have a CPL or other concealed carry type license in which case you can open carry anywhere and in some cases are REQUIRED to open carry. And hey! Michigan is a reciprocity state. We recognize permits/licences issued in any of the 50 states. As usual, private property rules trump all.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Plus do not allow "grandfathering" of municipal ordinances, resulting in a checkerboard square of laws.

    Include state agencies, departments, et cetera. Make sure that any exceptions are truly needed/valid i.e. jails, penitentiaries, court rooms.

    Try for quasi-public terminology wherein guns would not be restricted. Quasi-public= private property that invites the public to do business/attend w/o requiring membership, treated as if they were public property for this purpose. This will be a very hard sell, but a noble goal.
    Yes
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    I wish I could link the laws, but the Lexis site where Tennessee's laws are hosted is having "coding problems" whatever that means, but Tennessee has preemption and a short list of statutorily prohibited places, courtrooms where court is in session, schools (K-College) with minor exceptions, secure areas of jails/prisons, and secure areas of airports.

    We also have a "no guns sign" law that allows any property owner/controller to make their property "gun free" this includes municipalities and state agencies. The law does have a penalty (jail/fine) and no exemption for permit holders.

    I tend to like the idea of a signage law, but the sign should be mandated to be a specific size, have very specific wording, and posted prominently at every public entrance (Tennessee's is like this except for the wording portion). IMO, the law should also include wording that makes the property owner or controller liable (civilly and criminally, if applicable) for the safety of all persons on their property when the signs are posted.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Constitution Of The State Of Arkansas Of 1874
    Article 2.

    § 2. Freedom and independence.
    All men are created equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable
    rights; amongst which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; of acquiring,
    possessing and protecting property, and reputation; and of pursuing their own happiness. To
    secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the
    consent of the governed.

    §5. Right to bear arms.
    The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms, for their common defense.
    Suggested new statutory law....
    (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution, and Arkansas Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Arkansas, and as affirmed in section 2 and section 5 of Article 2 of the Arkansas Constitution, the general assembly finds that any federal law, state statute or local law that interferes with the citizen's inalienable rights is repugnant and shall not have any force and effect within this state. Without license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, every citizen may own, possess (openly or concealed), purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any arms or firearms, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition, and this state or its court system shall not interfere with those rights in any why, shape or form.

    (B)(1) The state of Arkansas shall be obligated to uphold these rights and shall under no circumstances decline to protect against their infringement. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the general assembly from enacting general laws which limit the rights of convicted violent felons or those duly adjudged mentally infirm by a court of competent jurisdiction.

    (2) In regards to part (A), no general law shall limit the full restoration of rights of convicted non-violent felons once their punishment has been fulfilled.

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