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Thread: Please refresh my memory

  1. #1
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    Please refresh my memory

    What is the deal with CCW in a school for residents?

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    Legal if concealed. Must leave if asked. If spotted, it will likely cause a lockdown. Basically, be ready for hassles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Legal if concealed. Must leave if asked. If spotted, it will likely cause a lockdown. Basically, be ready for hassles.

    Technically true. However, if you get caught, expect jailtime and lawyer bills. In a school cops are more likely to arrest first and ask questions later.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Which would be covered by "hassles" ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Which would be covered by "hassles" ;-)

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    That kind of hassle, should be Hassle...
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Exclamation The Current Statuess

    571.030.1(10) - Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board; or

    571.030.3 - ...Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event or club event.

    571.030.4. - Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    571.030.5. - Subdivisions (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031.

    571.107.1 - ...No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

    (10) - Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board, unless the person with the concealed carry endorsement or permit is a teacher or administrator of an elementary or secondary school who has been designated by his or her school district as a school protection officer and is carrying a firearm in a school within that district, in which case no consent is required. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

    571.030.8 - ...or subdivision (5) or (10) of subsection 1 of this section, in which case it is a class A misdemeanor if the firearm is unloaded and a class D felony if the firearm is loaded...
    If you carry a firearm into a school, likely onto school grounds as well and the firearm is discovered, expect to meet the requirements of 571.030.8.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If you carry a firearm into a school, likely onto school grounds as well and the firearm is discovered, expect to meet the requirements of 571.030.8.
    I believe you mean subsection 10 rather than 8. Ten being the one that mentions schools:

    571.030.1: "(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board; or..."

    And 571.030.4: "Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I believe you mean subsection 10 rather than 8. Ten being the one that mentions schools:

    571.030.1: "(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board; or..."

    And 571.030.4: "Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."
    No.

    571.030.8 outlines the penalty for the offense. Class A Misdemeanor if unloaded, Class D Felony if loaded. A endorsement does not grant us the right to carry onto school property except in our vehicle. 571.030.3 thru 5 provide exemptions to the carry, not just concealment. 571.107 informs us of where our endorsement does not grant us permission to carry. We may carry, OC or CC (as I read it) with the permission (written if we are smart) on "that" school property.

    571.030.8 - ...or subdivision (5) or (10) of subsection 1 of this section, in which case it is a class A misdemeanor if the firearm is unloaded and a class D felony if the firearm is loaded...
    The question is "can I...", the answer is no, except in your vehicle, OC or CC, makes no difference. Outside the vehicle 571.030.8 is the penalty.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    So, how does 571.030.1(10) apply to someone with a valid concealed carry permit, since 571.030.4 clearly exempts people from (10) with a valid permit? Explain it like it to me like I'm 5, because I'm not seeing it.


    571.030.4: "Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No.

    571.030.8 outlines the penalty for the offense. Class A Misdemeanor if unloaded, Class D Felony if loaded. A endorsement does not grant us the right to carry onto school property except in our vehicle. 571.030.3 thru 5 provide exemptions to the carry, not just concealment. 571.107 informs us of where our endorsement does not grant us permission to carry. We may carry, OC or CC (as I read it) with the permission (written if we are smart) on "that" school property.

    The question is "can I...", the answer is no, except in your vehicle, OC or CC, makes no difference. Outside the vehicle 571.030.8 is the penalty.

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    571.107.1(10) is the language that does not grant us a exemption due to we having a endorsement without prior permission, in writing.
    571.107.1 - ...No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

    (10) - Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board, unless the person with the concealed carry endorsement or permit is a teacher or administrator of an elementary or secondary school who has been designated by his or her school district as a school protection officer and is carrying a firearm in a school within that district, in which case no consent is required. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
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    OK, you're skipping ahead, but I'll play along. You say it does not grant is an exception. I'm guessing you mean it doesn't grant us an exception to 571.030.1(19). But why would I need one since I'm already exempted by 571.030.4? This statute doesn't roll that one back.

    This is an honest line of inquiry by the way. I want to know your reasoning here.

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  12. #12
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    571.030.3 thru 5 exempts you from the penalty found in 571.107.8.

    571.107.1(10) states that a endorsement does not give us the right to carry concealed into a school, or on school grounds beyond the confines of our vehicle.
    571.107.1(10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board, unless...

    571.107.2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises...
    As can be seen above, having a endorsement prevents (should) us from getting cuffed and stuffed cuz we are CC, or OC for that matter since 571.030.1(10) does not speak to CC or OC, just the carry of (possession). We can be asked to leave and if we refuse, if we exert our RKBA and remain, then the cuffing and stuffing part starts because we are now trespassing. We should be immune from any charges related to 571.030.1(10), the misdemeanor or felony due to our endorsement.

    571.107.2 gives us the out we need to skedaddle to avoid getting cuffed and stuffed if our concealed gat is discovered, or worse.

    It is confusing, the disconnect between 030.3 thru 5 and 107.1 & 2 to be sure. Essentially, a endorsement should prevent a charge (misdemeanor or felony) under 571.030.1(10) yet we can be asked to leave because of our firearm. It will be a felony charge cuz who goes about armed without and ammo.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It will be a felony charge cuz who goes about armed without and ammo.
    Nobody that I'm aware of, but I'm still not seeing how it would be a felony charge when the law specifically states that it "shall not be a crime".
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    Nobody that I'm aware of, but I'm still not seeing how it would be a felony charge when the law specifically states that it "shall not be a crime".
    With a CC permit the law says you can OC in schools. But not CC.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ce-station-etc

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    Please remove this post, you are not in the Michigan forum and your advice will get someone arrested in Missouri.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    With a CC permit the law says you can OC in schools. But not CC
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ce-station-etc


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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Please remove this post, you are not in the Michigan forum and your advice will get someone arrested in Missouri.
    Where do you see Michigan. Read the post. Those are MO laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeDreamt View Post
    With a CC permit the law says you can OC in schools. But not CC.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ce-station-etc
    571.107.1(10) and 571.107.2; CC in the school "shall not be a crime", assuming one has a CCW permit. Pretty sure that means it's not a crime.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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