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Thread: ideas to promote Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member Glock 1st fan's Avatar
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    ideas to promote Open Carry

    Just curious but what ideas would you have to promote open carry in Oklahoma more? Its so rare now that I would love to see more promotion.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The problem with OC with a CC permit is that people feel they payed for CC and they tend to CC. I think the best medicine is to OC as much as possible, you will occasionally get education opportunities. On the legal side work for constitutional carry whether OC or both OC and CC. IMO even with constitutional carry of both that people will not feel compelled to conceal, because that is what they paid for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The problem with OC with a CC permit is that people feel they payed for CC and they tend to CC.
    Do you have a citation for this claim?

    My permit allows me to legally carry in a school zone. But I don't know of anyone who chooses to go looking for school zones in which to carry just because they "payed [sic] for" that ability. Likewise, I don't know anyone who CCs over OCing because they "payed" for a permit. I know a lot of folks who got a permit because they wanted to legally CC or wanted to be legal in schools.

    I support OC. Support for OC should not ever equate to hostility to CC. How I carry is as much or more my own business as what I carry or whether I carry at all.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 01-15-2015 at 02:09 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Do you have a citation for this claim?

    My permit allows me to legally carry in a school zone. But I don't know of anyone who chooses to go looking for school zones in which to carry just because they "payed [sic] for" that ability. Likewise, I don't know anyone who CCs over OCing because they "payed" for a permit. I know a lot of folks who got a permit because they wanted to legally CC or wanted to be legal in schools.

    I support OC. Support for OC should not ever equate to hostility to CC. How I carry is as much or more my own business as what I carry or whether I carry at all.

    Charles
    We have seen it here in the forums, states with permit OC are less active than those with constitutional OC. IIRC there is a thread in the Ok sub forum on this very thought.

    Seeing how its still a very rare sight to see I think I have seen maybe 3 outside of Open Carry events? How many times have you saw an open carrier outside of events?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...you-saw-an-O-C

    Back when Open Carry first passed you could not keep up with all the post flying off the shelf. Seems these days both OKOCA and the boards are very very quiet.

    What happened to all the excitement?


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...7-Quiet-lately
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-15-2015 at 02:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    We have seen it here in the forums, states with permit OC are less active than those with constitutional OC. IIRC there is a thread in the Ok sub forum on this very thought.
    Reduced activity here does not mean reduced OC activity. It might mean that OC activity is becoming acceptable enough not to warrant posts. How many posts does anyone want to make or read about nothing happening? It might also mean that some who OC and used to post here no longer do for some reason. I have my guesses on why that might be.

    I don't believe OC activity in Utah is at all reduced from before we had shall issue permits. Indeed, it is probably higher now than then. But very little to report, and frankly this isn't really the preferred forum for many who are active in Utah.

    Even if there is reduced OC activity, that is not proof of your conjecture that people CC over OC because they paid for the ability to CC. It might mean that they OC when they had no legal option to CC and got their permits so as to legally carry in their preferred manner.

    My desire is not to get into a stats debate with you.

    My desire is to persuade you to stop attacking CC with these kinds of unsupportable comments. Carry as you like. Stop sniping at those who prefer to CC for whatever reason. There is no reason to do that.

    Charles

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Reduced activity here does not mean reduced OC activity. It might mean that OC activity is becoming acceptable enough not to warrant posts. How many posts does anyone want to make or read about nothing happening? It might also mean that some who OC and used to post here no longer do for some reason. I have my guesses on why that might be.

    I don't believe OC activity in Utah is at all reduced from before we had shall issue permits. Indeed, it is probably higher now than then. But very little to report, and frankly this isn't really the preferred forum for many who are active in Utah.

    Even if there is reduced OC activity, that is not proof of your conjecture that people CC over OC because they paid for the ability to CC. It might mean that they OC when they had no legal option to CC and got their permits so as to legally carry in their preferred manner.

    My desire is not to get into a stats debate with you.

    My desire is to persuade you to stop attacking CC with these kinds of unsupportable comments. Carry as you like. Stop sniping at those who prefer to CC for whatever reason. There is no reason to do that.

    Charles
    That is hilarious!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is hilarious!
    Cummon down to Wisconsin, a traditional open carry state now with the option to conceal.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-15-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    My desire is to persuade you to stop attacking CC with these kinds of unsupportable comments. Carry as you like. Stop sniping at those who prefer to CC for whatever reason. There is no reason to do that.

    Charles

    First - I did not see the original post as an attack on CC or CC'ers. Just as a statement of differences of opinion.
    Second - There are those in the CC crowd (I did not say all, most or even a few, just some) that snipe at OC all the time and they tend to be very vocal. Their "reasons" include the 2 most common falsehoods of the conversation; 1. That you will be targeted because of your OC weapon; and 2. That you will be the first shot. It does not matter to those people that either situation is so rare as to not have ever happened. We can all agree that it is possible. At least on this forum, A lie told often enough is still a lie.
    Another issue is the people of Oklahoma. They tend to be very independent minded and don't want to have to go to the government to get a permission slip to be able to do what they think the constitution acknowledges the right to do. Getting a permission slip to carry means the government now has them in their database. Should it ever happen that the government decides to disarm the people, they know where to start. Those with a permission slip will be the first ones targeted for confiscation. The people don't want that. If we had constitutional carry, there would be more OC, and the CC crowd could still CC.
    Last edited by okiephlyer; 01-15-2015 at 03:27 PM.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is hilarious!
    Sorry, utbagpiper - but on this one, I go with WW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock 1st fan View Post
    Just curious but what ideas would you have to promote open carry in Oklahoma more? Its so rare now that I would love to see more promotion.
    I'll bet open letters from cops like yourself to newspapers and legislators would help a lot.

    Do you yourself open carry when not in uniform? That would help a lot, too. Those who know you are a cop won't care, and those who don't see a "regular" open carrier who's not causing any issues.

    Do you promote it in your own locker room? What's the general consensus of opinion (even though they are professionals and shouldn't have one when on duty) of your department regarding OC'ers?
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-15-2015 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post
    Second - There are those in the CC crowd (I did not say all, most or even a few, just some) that snipe at OC all the time and they tend to be very vocal...
    There is another forum that I'm a member of where this happens quite a bit. I don't visit it as much as I used to due to this reason. I just got tired of reading post after post of "I support the 2nd Amendment, but..." Pictures being posted of people OCing with discussions on what kind of idiots they are, making fun of their gear or comments on how they are prancing around with something to prove. Heaven forbid something negative purportedly happens to somebody open carrying in the news. It became cumbersome and monotonous defending my position on open carry to members who felt they needed to dictate how I should carry. My involvement in that community went from posting, to just reading, to eventually not even going there.

    I don't post here that often because I don't have much to contribute. I've been open carrying for two years and still consider myself green. I read, I research and I learn. I go about my business and open carry. I've had a few comments from people but nothing worthy of a post, being positive or negative.

    On the topic at hand, I agree that more people would likely OC if we had constitutional carry or legal open carry without a permit. The reason I suspect this is that open carry is dissuaded and often portrayed as dangerous during the required classes for the permit. This was true in my class and I've read posts from others reporting the same thing in theirs. This seems to propagate the animosity for OC from new carriers that don't know any better and reinforce it for older ones that don't care to.
    Last edited by Arin Morris; 01-15-2015 at 12:28 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin Morris View Post
    There is another forum that I'm a member of where this happens quite a bit. I don't visit it as much as I used to due to this reason. I just got tired of reading post after post of "I support the 2nd Amendment, but..." Pictures being posted of people OCing with discussions on what kind of idiots they are, making fun of their gear or comments on how they are prancing around with something to prove. Heaven forbid something negative purportedly happens to somebody open carrying in the news. It became cumbersome and monotonous defending my position on open carry to members who felt they needed to dictate how I should carry. My involvement in that community went from posting, to just reading, to eventually not even going there.

    I don't post here that often because I don't have much to contribute. I've been open carrying for two years and still consider myself green. I read, I research and I learn. I go about my business and open carry. I've had a few comments from people but nothing worthy of a post, being positive or negative.

    On the topic at hand, I agree that more people would likely OC if we had constitutional carry or legal open carry without a permit. The reason I suspect this is that open carry is dissuaded and often portrayed as dangerous during the required classes for the permit. This was true in my class and I've read posts from others reporting the same thing in theirs. This seems to propagate the animosity for OC from new carriers that don't know any better and reinforce it for older ones that don't care to.
    OCDO has been instrumental in promoting OC. Education to the truth is the key, and actively open carrying furthers that education and dispels the myths. Without the hassle of a permit it is much easier to inform and uniformed citizen and turn them into a OCer. With a permit they can be talked out of it by members of P4P industry.

    I post considerable less on glock forum than I used to, the hatred for OC on their is very strong. Though it seems more members are willing to step up than before. I still jump in when the topic comes up, uncomfortable yes, but it is still education opportunity and sometimes we win. To claim we are not doing our part by using our voice in any venue is dishonest. Whatever that forum is you will be doing us a great service by speaking up with compelling arguments that educate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    Sorry, utbagpiper - but on this one, I go with WW.
    Opinions are fine. But some form of evidence or logic to rebut my position would be welcomed.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is hilarious!
    So you don't actually have a citation to back up your assertion that people CC because they "payed" for it.

    Your citations show reduced activity here, and from that you make two logical leaps:

    1-That there is a corresponding reduction in OC on the streets; and,

    2-That the reason for that reduction is because people are CCing rather than OCing because they "payed" for the privilege.

    Got it.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 01-15-2015 at 03:32 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    So you don't actually a citation to back up your assertion that people CC because they "payed" for it.

    Your citations show reduced activity here, and from that you make two logical leaps:

    1-That there is a corresponding reduction in OC on the streets; and,

    2-That the reason for that reduction is because people are CCing rather than OCing because they "payed" for the privilege.

    Got it.

    Charles
    The assumption that there is less because there is less, not due to cause and affect is lunacy. That is why it was funny.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post
    First - I did not see the original post as an attack on CC or CC'ers. Just as a statement of differences of opinion.
    There is some history beyond the single post.

    And as you can see from subsequent posts, WalkingWolf is overtly hostile to any permit. I guess he lives where school zones are scarce enough not to be an issue.

    I find permits being legally required to carry in any peaceful manner or any location generally open and accessible to the public as offensive as would be permits to attend church. But as I look back over a ~25 year history of permits, I think they have served a valuable purpose of providing a politically attainable means of millions of persons being able to effectively defend themselves when they previously could not, and of laying the groundwork for States now moving to adopt full constitutional carry.

    In the past, I've offered a few thoughts about the effect OCing long guns has on public reaction. I've always supported the legal ability to (peacefully) OC as one sees fit. And I support the individual right to carry discretely if one prefers that.

    WalkingWolf has previously made unsupportable claims about OC being a constitutional right while CC is not. I missed that in my reading of the 2nd amendment.

    Charles

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin Morris View Post
    There is another forum that I'm a member of where this happens quite a bit. I don't visit it as much as I used to due to this reason. I just got tired of reading post after post of "I support the 2nd Amendment, but..."
    I'm almost positive which forum you speak of, and I do the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The assumption that there is less because there is less, not due to cause and affect is lunacy. That is why it was funny.
    You again misread my posts. I offered up alternative theories to your own laughable assertion that people OC less because they "payed" to be able to CC. You've don't nothing to counter my theories. Since neither of us can provide any citation to any study as to whether there even is less OCing, much less why, my theories are at least as sound as yours.

    And like recognizing that smokers get cancer rather than thinking that those with cancer take up smoking, it sure seems rational that those who want to CC get a permit, rather than people getting a permit and then the permit or payment thereof making them want to go CC.

    Its almost like you are unhappy that some people choose to carry discretely rather than joining you in OCing.

    Charles

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    You again misread my posts. I offered up alternative theories to your own laughable assertion that people OC less because they "payed" to be able to CC. You've don't nothing to counter my theories. Since neither of us can provide any citation to any study as to whether there even is less OCing, much less why, my theories are at least as sound as yours.

    And like recognizing that smokers get cancer rather than thinking that those with cancer take up smoking, it sure seems rational that those who want to CC get a permit, rather than people getting a permit and then the permit or payment thereof making them want to go CC.

    Its almost like you are unhappy that some people choose to carry discretely rather than joining you in OCing.

    Charles
    You have a vivid imagination, and assume wayyy too much. But it is to be expected as that has been your mantra. I have never expressed a problem with CC, but I do defend OC, --moderator edited-- Clearly a right fails to be a right if the people have to ask "Uncle Sam may I?". It is almost like you have a problem with constitutional rights being exercised without government interference.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-15-2015 at 06:14 PM.
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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    There is some history beyond the single post.

    Charles
    That is so very true. In this state, the self righteous keepers of the common sense CCer's have been more vocal opposition to OC than the anti's. Not all CCer's, just those with a "Righter than thou" attitude.

    Just for clarification - Do you live or have you lived recently or for very long, in Oklahoma? The only reason I ask is this; I travel for a living and get to interact with CCer's and OCers all across the 48 states. Each area and to some degree, each state has its own culture in how the law enforcement authorities and the local population treat the carry issue (open or concealed). The culture in Utah is much different that in Oklahoma. I'm not saying either is better, just that they are different and you can't use Oklahoma culture to explain Utah culture, and vice versa, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    And as you can see from subsequent posts, WalkingWolf is overtly hostile to any permit.

    WalkingWolf has previously made unsupportable claims about OC being a constitutional right while CC is not. I missed that in my reading of the 2nd amendment.

    Charles
    I didn't see where WW made either claim in this thread, In my reading of the 2nd amendment, neither OC nor CC is mentioned. Neither is long gun carry or hand gun carry. So from that standpoint, either means of carry should be Constitutional. Our laws have effectively changed the way the 2nd is implemented, and thus we will have a long way to go to get back to where we should be in regards to Constitutional Carry nationwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    You have a vivid imagination, and assume wayyy too much. But it is to be expected as that has been your mantra.
    Your mantra has been to get personally offended at every perceived disagreement and to them grossly mis-represent what others have written. It's too bad, because you do often have very sensible positions and good information. But take any disagreement as some kind of slight against 10 generations of your forebears that must be avenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I have never expressed a problem with CC,
    My mistake and my apologies. I'm glad you cleared that up.

    Now, just to clarify. Do you support the individual right to carry a gun in a discrete/concealed manner?

    Do you believe that OC is constitutionally, morally, or socially superior to discrete/concealed carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    but I do defend OC,
    As do I.

    --moderator edited--
    [/QUOTE]

    How very mature and civil of you. --Moderator edited-- Now, we're even. Wasn't that a lovely way to elevate the level of discourse?

    Would you like to be civil and get along?

    I doubt it. It seems you like to hold on to grudges for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Clearly a right fails to be a right if the people have to ask "Uncle Sam may I?".
    True. But a shall issue permit has proven to be a step toward full constitutional carry in multiple States now.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It is almost like you have a problem with constitutional rights being exercised without government interference.
    Not at all.

    But it is very much like you have real problems if someone advocates a slightly different political or social strategy for regaining rights than you favor.

    I will, yet again, extend an olive branch if you'd like to stop sniping, stop the insults, and mutually behave civilly toward one another.

    Any interest?

    Charles
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-15-2015 at 06:20 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    (snip)

    I will, yet again, extend an olive branch if you'd like to stop sniping, stop the insults, and mutually behave civilly toward one another.

    (snip)

    Charles
    What a joke, are you trying to be a comedian. I honestly do not think you have it in you to be civil. Your posts have been filled with sniping. Maybe you should look in the mirror.
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post
    That is so very true. In this state, the self righteous keepers of the common sense CCer's have been more vocal opposition to OC than the anti's. Not all CCer's, just those with a "Righter than thou" attitude.
    The "I'm a gun owner, but" crowd always gives more problems than the antis. They have more credibility than the obvious gun phobes. We have some on this site who too often fall into the OCer "Righter than thou" crowd.


    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post
    Just for clarification - Do you live or have you lived recently or for very long, in Oklahoma? The only reason I ask is this; I travel for a living and get to interact with CCer's and OCers all across the 48 states. Each area and to some degree, each state has its own culture in how the law enforcement authorities and the local population treat the carry issue (open or concealed). The culture in Utah is much different that in Oklahoma. I'm not saying either is better, just that they are different and you can't use Oklahoma culture to explain Utah culture, and vice versa, etc.
    No. No significant time in OK. And there are likely to be significant cultural differences, legal differences etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post

    In my reading of the 2nd amendment, neither OC nor CC is mentioned. Neither is long gun carry or hand gun carry. So from that standpoint, either means of carry should be Constitutional. Our laws have effectively changed the way the 2nd is implemented, and thus we will have a long way to go to get back to where we should be in regards to Constitutional Carry nationwide.
    Fully agreed.

    I believe that shall issue permits have served a valuable purpose in allowing a lot of people to legally defend themselves while also helping to shift the terms of the debate to where constitutional carry (at the State level) is now a viable goal. Twenty five years ago, I think permit free constitutional carry was not politically achievable in most areas of the nation. It was a challenge to find a good concealed holster or gun for many people.

    Widespread permits have allowed an entire culture to spring up and become a political and social force.

    Some of the OCer "Righter than thou" crowd act as if anything other than seething hatred for permits is the same thing as wanting to see permits required forever.

    I find permits constitutionally as offensive as would be permits to attend church. They are a politically expedient evil, IMO. But political expediency that leads to restoration of rights should not be attacked too harshly.

    We have a bill in Utah this year to eliminate the requirement for permits to conceal carry. It passed our legislature last year but was vetoed. We'll see if we can get it to law this year.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    What a joke, are you trying to be a comedian. I honestly do not think you have it in you to be civil. Your posts have been filled with sniping. Maybe you should look in the mirror.
    I extend the olive branch to be mutually civil from this moment forward.

    Do you want to give it a try?

    Charles

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I extend the olive branch to be mutually civil from this moment forward.

    Do you want to give it a try?

    Charles
    What is there to offer, you either act civilly or you don't. Don't invitations that I see you have no intention to keep. Don't talk about promises, the proof will be in your style of posting.
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