ideas to promote Open Carry

utbagpiper said:

(snip)

I will, yet again, extend an olive branch if you'd like to stop sniping, stop the insults, and mutually behave civilly toward one another.

(snip)

Charles

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What a joke, are you trying to be a comedian. I honestly do not think you have it in you to be civil. Your posts have been filled with sniping. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

okiephlyer said:

That is so very true. In this state, the self righteous keepers of the common sense CCer's have been more vocal opposition to OC than the anti's. Not all CCer's, just those with a "Righter than thou" attitude.

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The "I'm a gun owner, but" crowd always gives more problems than the antis. They have more credibility than the obvious gun phobes. We have some on this site who too often fall into the OCer "Righter than thou" crowd.

okiephlyer said:

Just for clarification - Do you live or have you lived recently or for very long, in Oklahoma? The only reason I ask is this; I travel for a living and get to interact with CCer's and OCers all across the 48 states. Each area and to some degree, each state has its own culture in how the law enforcement authorities and the local population treat the carry issue (open or concealed). The culture in Utah is much different that in Oklahoma. I'm not saying either is better, just that they are different and you can't use Oklahoma culture to explain Utah culture, and vice versa, etc.

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No. No significant time in OK. And there are likely to be significant cultural differences, legal differences etc.

okiephlyer said:

In my reading of the 2nd amendment, neither OC nor CC is mentioned. Neither is long gun carry or hand gun carry. So from that standpoint, either means of carry should be Constitutional. Our laws have effectively changed the way the 2nd is implemented, and thus we will have a long way to go to get back to where we should be in regards to Constitutional Carry nationwide.

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Fully agreed.

I believe that shall issue permits have served a valuable purpose in allowing a lot of people to legally defend themselves while also helping to shift the terms of the debate to where constitutional carry (at the State level) is now a viable goal. Twenty five years ago, I think permit free constitutional carry was not politically achievable in most areas of the nation. It was a challenge to find a good concealed holster or gun for many people.

Widespread permits have allowed an entire culture to spring up and become a political and social force.

Some of the OCer "Righter than thou" crowd act as if anything other than seething hatred for permits is the same thing as wanting to see permits required forever.

I find permits constitutionally as offensive as would be permits to attend church. They are a politically expedient evil, IMO. But political expediency that leads to restoration of rights should not be attacked too harshly.

We have a bill in Utah this year to eliminate the requirement for permits to conceal carry. It passed our legislature last year but was vetoed. We'll see if we can get it to law this year.

Charles

WalkingWolf said:

What a joke, are you trying to be a comedian. I honestly do not think you have it in you to be civil. Your posts have been filled with sniping. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

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I extend the olive branch to be mutually civil from this moment forward.

Do you want to give it a try?

Charles

utbagpiper said:

I extend the olive branch to be mutually civil from this moment forward.

Do you want to give it a try?

Charles

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What is there to offer, you either act civilly or you don't. Don't invitations that I see you have no intention to keep. Don't talk about promises, the proof will be in your style of posting.

WalkingWolf said:

What is there to offer, you either act civilly or you don't. Don't invitations that I see you have no intention to keep. Don't talk about promises, the proof will be in your style of posting.

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I recognize and concede I have been less than proper in some of my postings to you. I believe I have returned what you have given. You probably feel likewise. And I'm not interested in going back to see who offended whom first and who was overly sensitive to what before the other.

I'm offering to put aside past offenses and move out with a clean slate.

We will disagree. My long posts will still annoy you. Your twitter snippets will still irk me. We will disagree on some things.

But we can agree and pledge to each other to be civil, to give benefit of the doubt when in doubt, not to assume some evil intent, and to discuss honestly.

I believe that when one commits to something, one is more likely to do it, especially if one has made a commitment to another.

I believe you have honor and that if you commit to be civil to me, you'll be more careful in what you post to or about me. And I toward you. We won't be perfect. But I think we can both be better.

I'm willing to impose this burden on myself if you will join me because I believe it will be to our and the board's betterment.

But I'm not good enough to unilaterally "disarm" as it were. And I wouldn't ask you to either.

Are you willing to make a mutual, public pledge? Only enforcement is our own conscience. As part of our effort to raise the level of discourse, we should pledge to frankly, but civilly point out if the other does something we find offensive, rather than responded with offense. In other words, give an honest chance for the other to correct misunderstandings before responding as one who is offended.

My offer is there.

Are you interested?

Charles

utbagpiper said:

I recognize and concede I have been less than proper in some of my postings to you. I believe I have returned what you have given. You probably feel likewise. And I'm not interested in going back to see who offended whom first and who was overly sensitive to what before the other.

I'm offering to put aside past offenses and move out with a clean slate.

We will disagree. My long posts will still annoy you. Your twitter snippets will still irk me. We will disagree on some things.

But we can agree and pledge to each other to be civil, to give benefit of the doubt when in doubt, not to assume some evil intent, and to discuss honestly.

I believe that when one commits to something, one is more likely to do it, especially if one has made a commitment to another.

I believe you have honor and that if you commit to be civil to me, you'll be more careful in what you post to or about me. And I toward you. We won't be perfect. But I think we can both be better.

I'm willing to impose this burden on myself if you will join me because I believe it will be to our and the board's betterment.

But I'm not good enough to unilaterally "disarm" as it were. And I wouldn't ask you to either.

Are you willing to make a mutual, public pledge? Only enforcement is our own conscience. As part of our effort to raise the level of discourse, we should pledge to frankly, but civilly point out if the other does something we find offensive, rather than responded with offense. In other words, give an honest chance for the other to correct misunderstandings before responding as one who is offended.

My offer is there.

Are you interested?

Charles

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Don't talk about doing it, just do it~then we will go from there.

I have had heated discussions with just about everybody on the forum at one time or another. There never was any peace treaty to move on~we just moved on.

okiephlyer said:

I'm almost positive which forum you speak of, and I do the same thing.

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I am positive of which forum you both speak. I don't generally post much on the open carry topic there for the same reason.

Well this has gone pretty OT. Anyway....


The way to promote OC is to do it. I cannot due to personal and financial reasons but I do promote OC wherever I go. Sadly the level of ignorance and fear is almost unbelievable. Whenever I am able to carry, i'm quite sure the high percentage of leftwingers will make carry rather interesting to say the least and I expect to be trespassed quite regularly.

However I will call each and every business out for their actions via social networks, possibly even promoting the posts as well as add them to websites like friendorfoe. And tell them i'm doing so and why.

rightwinglibertarian said:

Well this has gone pretty OT. Anyway....


The way to promote OC is to do it. I cannot due to personal and financial reasons but I do promote OC wherever I go. Sadly the level of ignorance and fear is almost unbelievable. Whenever I am able to carry, i'm quite sure the high percentage of leftwingers will make carry rather interesting to say the least and I expect to be trespassed quite regularly.

However I will call each and every business out for their actions via social networks, possibly even promoting the posts as well as add them to websites like friendorfoe. And tell them i'm doing so and why.

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Bingo!

rightwinglibertarian said:

The way to promote OC is to do it.

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An important aspect of "promoting OC" is to not have laws that criminalize it.

Obviously, it is quite difficult to OC in Florida with their effective ban on OCing. Ditto for OCing a handgun in Texas. Some minimum level of OC-friendly laws are needful. Some effort to get them, retain them, and then expand on them is required.

If OC is legal without a permit, keep it that way.

Make sure that getting a permit does not impose an extra burden to conceal.

Work to avoid having criminal penalties for private gun bans. Go a step further and work to have private gun bans outlawed just as private policies enforcing racial discrimination are illegal. Get what you can get.

In Utah, with the exception of private homes and churches that give notice, private gun bans carry no force of law. That combined with culture means that very few businesses bother to post, and if they do, there is still no violation unless the specifically trespass you and you refuse to leave or continue to return in violation of the trespass. Even then, no gun violation; a trespass violation only.

We do not (yet) treat gun carriers as a protected class in most cases, but we do have parking lot preemption so that employees can store a gun in their cars in company parking lots without facing employment action. This makes it easier to have a gun for lunch-time efforts, after work rallies, and for general self-defense during the commute.

Work to reduce the number of off limits locations. There is no reason for parks, hospitals, most government buildings, libraries, or schools to be off limits. At the very least, get off limits locations exempted for permit holders. Now you can legally OC in places you couldn't, so long as you have a permit. Yes, this is constitutionally offensive, but often more politically achievable than "allowing just anyone to carry a gun into a school".

Bottom line, the fewer legal restrictions you have on OC the easier it is to OC, the more people will do. If the only way to OC is to devote a lot of time planning your route and what you'll do with your gun when you get to destination X, fewer people will carry less often.

I'd dare say that in Utah, the vast majority of our regular OCers have permits to carry so as to be safe with school zones (LOTS of schools here), to be able to carry fully loaded rather than "Israeli" or Utah-unloaded as is sadly still required even to OC without a permit, and for reciprocity reasons. With a permit in Utah, almost no place you commonly go where you can't legally OC.

Just some thoughts.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

An important aspect of "promoting OC" is to not have laws that criminalize it.

Obviously, it is quite difficult to OC in Florida with their effective ban on OCing. Ditto for OCing a handgun in Texas. Some minimum level of OC-friendly laws are needful.

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Well now i'm confused. First you say you don't want laws criminalising OC but then you talk of OC laws. In an ideal situation, there wouldnt even be state OC laws, or at most a repetition of the 2A and maybe adding full and total preemption just to reiterate all gun control laws are illegal.

The fact we've gotten to the point where states like CA and HI can actually get away with the so-called 'laws' on the books shows how complacent American people have been as well as the fact 'permits' are even issued. The Founding Fathers would be rolling in their graves if they saw the compromises that have been made

rightwinglibertarian said:

Well now i'm confused. First you say you don't want laws criminalising OC but then you talk of OC laws. In an ideal situation, there wouldnt even be state OC laws, or at most a repetition of the 2A and maybe adding full and total preemption just to reiterate all gun control laws are illegal.

The fact we've gotten to the point where states like CA and HI can actually get away with the so-called 'laws' on the books shows how complacent American people have been as well as the fact 'permits' are even issued. The Founding Fathers would be rolling in their graves if they saw the compromises that have been made

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I speak of what I want, and then I speak of dealing with current reality. Were those two the same, I (and probably you) would have far less reason to be politically active than I current have. I am involved precisely because I want to move reality ever closer to the ideal.

So you start with where you are, and figure out how to work toward the ideal. Rarely is that going to happen in one large legislative or judicial step. Many smaller steps are generally required. I simply listed some of what might smaller steps toward complete statutory (and social) respect for our RKBA.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

I speak of what I want, and then I speak of dealing with current reality. Were those two the same, I (and probably you) would have far less reason to be politically active than I current have. I am involved precisely because I want to move reality ever closer to the ideal.

So you start with where you are, and figure out how to work toward the ideal. Rarely is that going to happen in one large legislative or judicial step. Many smaller steps are generally required. I simply listed some of what might smaller steps toward complete statutory (and social) respect for our RKBA.

Charles

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*chuckles* You sound like Grapeshot there. Especially that last paragraph. But yea I understand now

rightwinglibertarian said:

*chuckles* You sound like Grapeshot there. Especially that last paragraph. But yea I understand now

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Careful, Grapeshot may take that as the worst kind of insult.

Charles

WalkingWolf said:

Don't talk about doing it, just do it~then we will go from there.

I have had heated discussions with just about everybody on the forum at one time or another. There never was any peace treaty to move on~we just moved on.

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WalkingWolf,

I'm sorry to see that you are reticent to make a public commitment to be more civil. I recognize that I have been more than merely "heated" with you. I have not shown appropriate manners and respect. I would hope you can recognize the same on your part toward me.

I will do my best to be civil toward you. If you either ignore my posts (some are going to annoy you because of my style), or read them with the viewpoint that I'm not your enemy, and then if you decide to respond, do so with civility, we will have civility. If you believe I've offended, give me a chance to correct before getting snipping of unpleasant, and we will have peace between us, brother.

I will do my level best to let you know when I think you've responded to me in a less than civil manner. I'm coming to recognize you are not so much for discussion, preferring to state what you believe directly. That sometimes annoys me, but I'll try not to be overly sensitive. I hope you'll take that as my honest attempt to correct misunderstanding, rather than a provocative attack against you.

Charles

Back to our regularly scheduled program....

There was some talk last year of having an OC picnic at a Tulsa Park, complete with speakers and publicity. A meeting where people could socialize and talk to others about OC. Bring out the families and friends and let the world know that OC is not scary.

okiephlyer said:

Back to our regularly scheduled program....

There was some talk last year of having an OC picnic at a Tulsa Park, complete with speakers and publicity. A meeting where people could socialize and talk to others about OC. Bring out the families and friends and let the world know that OC is not scary.

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There was talk but it faded off. Sadly there is not a huge push like there was for Open Carry. I went to a few dinners but when I promoted Open Carry we had large groups. After I stepped away to spend time on other things such as instruction, work and family I did notice the groups began to slowly shrink.

There was a report once where more representatives of open showed up then open carriers. The issue is though we need to get away from the old meet up and have dinner mentality and focus more on what people want. I tried to spearhead this once but simply did not have time or resources to do it. people want to be a part of the firearms community and do things like go to the range. They want to train more and I truly think if people would get more in to this mentality we would see the community grow.

Open Carry is what it is. Its like cars and its like anything else. Sometimes you need a 4 wheel drive and sometimes you need an economy car. Sometimes you need a pickup and sometimes you need a van. Open Carry is the same in that there are times you may want or have a need to conceal. What ever the need is I am not saying its community wide but instead personal. Example would be you just are not comfortable open carrying. Other times you would have a need such as you want to use your right so you decide to open carry. Either way the flag still stands for freedom so use your freedom of choice and carry how you see fit.

There is resistance as you mention from people pushing lies to prevent lawful carry and responsible carry along with good safe and knowledgeable instructors teaching safety first we will get back to where firearms are a common thing in America.

I find the biggest barrier to open carry is CC carry group that always tell everyone we will be the first to be got. And that we are at a disadvantage seeing how criminals will see our guns and take them. I have had many people ask questions about it and how to get a permit. And I have had very few negative comments. Chances are we will not change many of the CC crowd but it is the newbies who are more apt to listen. We have to some how get them over the I tried it but was uncomfortable with it mentality. The main thing is how we answer people when they either confront us or ask questions on why we do it. If we act or answer rudely the we will push people away. Arguing with them over the issue will not profit us any.

kinggabby said:

I find the biggest barrier to open carry is CC carry group that always tell everyone we will be the first to be got. And that we are at a disadvantage seeing how criminals will see our guns and take them. I have had many people ask questions about it and how to get a permit. And I have had very few negative comments. Chances are we will not change many of the CC crowd but it is the newbies who are more apt to listen. We have to some how get them over the I tried it but was uncomfortable with it mentality. The main thing is how we answer people when they either confront us or ask questions on why we do it. If we act or answer rudely the we will push people away. Arguing with them over the issue will not profit us any.

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So true