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Thread: WA Legislature considering banning open carry in chambers

  1. #1
    Regular Member Jamfish's Avatar
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    WA Legislature considering banning open carry in chambers

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    The result of the rule of small men over the rule of law. Because they can.

    "Lt. Gov. Brad Owen, who serves as president of the Senate, and House Majority Leader Pat Sullivan, a Democrat from Covington, both said Friday that they believe that the rule that currently bans props, signs or other forms of demonstration would also prohibit openly carrying weapons in the gallery."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    The cops should have arrested the ********** who were holding their guns in their hands. It was clearly illegal and the cops should have enforced the law to show a clear line between lawful open carry and illegally handling a firearm in public.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    9.41.270

    They were brandishing.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    There's a difference between handing someone a gun and holding it in the ready position. The latter is brandishing.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    The difference would be established caselaw and notable incidents where police have shot and even killed people doing that.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    The difference would be established caselaw and notable incidents where police have shot and even killed people doing that.
    The cops shoot a lot of people for a lot of things. Like a 7 yo little girl sleeping on a couch. It's not a good argument for a law.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    The cops shoot a lot of people for a lot of things. Like a 7 yo little girl sleeping on a couch. It's not a good argument for a law.
    So how about muzzle discipline then?

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    The photos attached to the articles linked by the OP look a lot like "demonstrating" to me. Or, something akin to brandishing. It is not merely OCing a firearm for self-defense.

    It would be a real shame to see a rule change based on some provocative conduct from a small minority. But it is because of the small minority unable/unwilling to govern themselves that most all rules are required.

    Just as there is a time and place for signs, shouting, honking and waving, there are times and places where such conduct is not appropriate. Ditto for how these firearms are being handled. The spectator gallery of a State legislature is not the place for such conduct, IMO.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    and lots of people say the same thing about the holstered open carry of unloaded pistols in California..... and those that open carry rifles in Texas.... sounds like what is being stated is that people should submit to the suppression of their right to bear arms based upon the perceived tolerance of the government in power.
    What limit would you impose?

    When the finger enters the trigger guard? When the finger is rested on the trigger? Only when they have an ND? Or only if the ND hits a person rather than just putting a hole in the building?

    What about one of these good folks covering you with his/her barrel as they swing that long gun around? You ok with that so long as they don't have their finger on the trigger when they do?

    Are you and they certain that the floors/ceilings of the building will reliably stop a rifle round (often way more powerful than a handgun round) rather than being penetrated and someone on the next (or lower) level being at risk? On the flip side, does the floor or ceiling present a credible risk of ricochet and thus danger to everyone in the room if there is an ND? None of us would select a flat concrete slab as backstop for shooting. On the flip side, none of us would use a couple of sheets of plywood and sheetrock as a bullet catcher. Did this fine examples of responsible gun owners give any real thought at all to safety?

    What exactly is the safe direction to point a rifle when inside a building such as this? Or do basic safety rules not apply if someone is trying to make a statement about RKBA?

    Beyond some objective safety questions, we have the public relations / image questions.

    Of course, our rights shouldn't be subject to others' opinions about them. But they are. Call it tyranny if you like. That is reality and it is exactly why we show up at legislative meetings, why we work to elect pro-RKBA candidates to office. It is insanity to engage in political work and then ignore the political ramifications of our conduct.

    In this case, the conduct won't just affect those who think handling long guns in public is a fine idea. The rule change will likely affect all OC'd firearms.

    Charles

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    Who's the low brow with the mask? Jesus . . .

    Not a good showing for our side. I was going to put my name on the calendar - glad I didn't.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/0...2F289%2F&ihp=1
    "We're just noting that open carry is a form of demonstration and it's no different than carrying a placard or something else of that nature," he said.


    I have yet to see someone arrested for carrying a placard.....
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 01-16-2015 at 08:20 PM.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Who's the low brow with the mask? Jesus . . .

    Not a good showing for our side. I was going to put my name on the calendar - glad I didn't.
    Perhaps you could define "our side". These folks were obviously pro 2A. If that isn't "your side" what side are you on?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    There's no brandishing statute in Washington.

    Stop blaming people who exercise their rights for us loosing them. Blame the F'ing state!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  15. #15
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    So how about muzzle discipline then?
    MD is important without a doubt.
    Funny side note. I was on a roller coaster last fall at a county fair.
    And I specifically remember thinking about my old CCW instructor trying to teach me about muzzle safety.
    He said something to the effect that you should always think about your gun like it has a constant lazer beam shooting out of it and you can never pass it over anything you didn't want to cut in half.
    I remember thinking "all those poor souls" as I zipped around in circles on that roller coaster. The whole time my holstered .45 what zapping people in half below.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  16. #16
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There's no brandishing statute in Washington.

    Stop blaming people who exercise their rights for us loosing them. Blame the F'ing state!
    Plus a gazillion. Ill-placed blame is one of the worst "crimes" of media and society in general these days.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  17. #17
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    If that isn't "your side" what side are you on?


    Don't be coy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There's no brandishing statute in Washington.

    Stop blaming people who exercise their rights for us loosing them. Blame the F'ing state!

    C,mom Robert, that's not entirely accurate. RCW 9.41.270 (1) "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

    While the term "brandishing" is not used in this text, the language is there that could easily be interpreted to define the act. And I can tell you that more than one person at yesterday's rally, including one attorney, said the way some of those folks handled their firearms could easily have alarmed some people, and maybe even intimidated some people.

    Whether you, or I, or anyone else on this forum agrees with that, that's the way it is. Light up the flame thrower if you must, but to insist that yesterday's little display was just people exercising their rights might be a hair intellectually dishonest. The images appearing on KOMO's website, and those taken by the Seattle P-I.com suggest more than merely an exercise of the right to bear arms.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/L...288857421.html

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...ry/#29808101=0


    And just in time for this conversation, The Associated Press reports the Senate HAS BANNED the open carry of firearms in the Senate chamber gallery.

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/0...=/99/289/&rh=1

    http://www.examiner.com/article/will...d-to-new-rules

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    What was illegal about it? What statute was being violated?
    See above.
    Last edited by Dave Workman; 01-16-2015 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/0...2F289%2F&ihp=1


    I have yet to see someone arrested for carrying a placard.....


    HEY EVERYBODY: Let's give a hearty and hardy shout out to Brother Starks here for his superb handling of the sound equipment Thursday. A job VERY WELL DONE!

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    HEY EVERYBODY: Let's give a hearty and hardy shout out to Brother Starks here for his superb handling of the sound equipment Thursday. A job VERY WELL DONE!
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    C,mom Robert, that's not entirely accurate. RCW 9.41.270 (1) "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

    While the term "brandishing" is not used in this text, the language is there that could easily be interpreted to define the act. And I can tell you that more than one person at yesterday's rally, including one attorney, said the way some of those folks handled their firearms could easily have alarmed some people, and maybe even intimidated some people.

    Whether you, or I, or anyone else on this forum agrees with that, that's the way it is. Light up the flame thrower if you must, but to insist that yesterday's little display was just people exercising their rights might be a hair intellectually dishonest. The images appearing on KOMO's website, and those taken by the Seattle P-I.com suggest more than merely an exercise of the right to bear arms.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/L...288857421.html

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...ry/#29808101=0


    And just in time for this conversation, The Associated Press reports the Senate HAS BANNED the open carry of firearms in the Senate chamber gallery.

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/0...=/99/289/&rh=1

    http://www.examiner.com/article/will...d-to-new-rules



    See above.
    I don't find too much to disagree with there except that words have meanings and brandishing could be included in that definition. It does not seem to apply to the picture above.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Don't be coy.[/COLOR]
    heh thanks. Been accused of plenty but never that.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I am very sorry that "our side" got represented by d-bags. It VERY APPROPRIATELY should have a response from both the legislature and "our side."

    You should no more show up there with an SBR at low ready, than you would show up to a legislative meeting in a Speedo and swearing at the assembly. Contempt charges should apply for misuse of the right to bear arms as they do to the misuse of the right to free speech at a government venue.

    The response should not be to ban firearms. The mall-ninja d-bags did a good job at bringing the issue to an emotional false dichotomy.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I don't find too much to disagree with there except that words have meanings and brandishing could be included in that definition. It does not seem to apply to the picture above.

    I can understand YOU not thinking so, but look at it through the eyes of people who dislike us, or are afraid of us, or maybe have (as did some people who walked around the rally yesterday) children and young teens in tow, and you just might get a different perspective. And it's their perspective that counts.

    Say we're both lawmakers minding the people's business, and into the gallery come a dozen total strangers carrying long guns in a way that looks like some of them might mean business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post

    Say we're both lawmakers minding the people's business, and into the gallery come a dozen total strangers carrying long guns in a way that looks like some of them might mean business.
    Exactly what the Black Panthers did, history repeats its self.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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