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    New to the idea

    Greetings all.

    I would like to state I have recently purchased a sidearm and have been considering open carrying. the municipality would be independence, I'm not sure exactly which lines of the municipal code I should memorize.

    I'm also not sure if the Kansas city OC ban unless you are CCW endorsed applies here or not. and I'm not very familiar with the PD either as to how their employees feel about Open Carriers. any experience in this area by others would be welcome as I would like to exercise my right, but don't really want endless harassment by law enforcement or costly court dates to do so as I'm not that well financially backed..

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    Welcome to the board !


    You are wise to seek out this information; however, it is your responsibility (so the courts say) that you know every law, administrative rulings, and court rulings in existence in respect to ones that regulate your firearm.

    While folks here may offer their opinion, it is not legal advice. So keep that in mind.

    The municipal code in respect to which ones your should or are expected to memorize, the answer is all of course lol. If you have a specific question about one or two you should pose a specific question so that folks can answer with a focused response.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Greetings all.

    I would like to state I have recently purchased a sidearm and have been considering open carrying. the municipality would be independence, I'm not sure exactly which lines of the municipal code I should memorize.

    I'm also not sure if the Kansas city OC ban unless you are CCW endorsed applies here or not. and I'm not very familiar with the PD either as to how their employees feel about Open Carriers. any experience in this area by others would be welcome as I would like to exercise my right, but don't really want endless harassment by law enforcement or costly court dates to do so as I'm not that well financially backed..
    Read RSMo 571 as a starting point. Buy a recording device and obtain a CCW endorsement.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I have read RSMo a couple of times, but not to the point I have it memorized

    the specific references on local municipal code I was wondering as to which I should memorize are the lawful/unlawful weapons use.

    I have read our local municipal code multiple times and have seen no mention of open carry listed as unlawful. mostly it's discharging a firearm within city limits or across a highway unless the discharge is in self defense.

    I agree with a CCW endorsement as it eliminates a lot of hassle, as you can then, by state law, open carry anywhere in the state, with the only problem being needing to provide a CCW endorsement to law enforcement upon request.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Reading 571 is an excellent start. If you don't have your CCW you want to make sure the muni you will be OCing in hasn't banned OC except with CCW (per state law).

    If you hang around enough, many will reference A5.....it is now actually Section 23 of the MO Constitution. Lots of conversation and what it means happens in almost every thread when talking about OCing, in the MO section. Wouldn't hurt to read up on it.

    WELCOME and Enjoy!!
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    I've actually read amendment 5, and voted FOR it. or section 23 of the MO constitution. it is interesting to imagine as to how it will pan out in a court, but like I said I don't have the finances to fight these things in practice rather then theory.

    although I wish some people wouldn't test the limits of A5 so the papers wouldn't have ammo for their agenda's.

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    Oh and I apologize for not asking this earlier, but anyone know of a good place for weapons retention training?

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    ...although I wish some people wouldn't test the limits of A5 so the papers wouldn't have ammo for their agenda's.
    You're so right!!

    It's best that people not use the rights available to them because someone on the opposite side of the issue might be upset about it, and engage in activism.

    It's much better to sit in one's living room and feel secure about all the RIGHTS one has, but not exercise them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    You're so right!!

    It's best that people not use the rights available to them because someone on the opposite side of the issue might be upset about it, and engage in activism.

    It's much better to sit in one's living room and feel secure about all the RIGHTS one has, but not exercise them.

    I think you misunderstand me, the people I am referring to are the so called "non violent" felons that are using A5 as a means to reinstate their arms right. these people are barred on a federal level.

    and yes I am well aware that the 2nd doesn't mention whether one is a felon or not.

    And I also understand the agenda of those of us wishing to open carry is to essentially acclimate the public to seeing people open carrying. however felons trying to use A5 isn't doing US any favors right now and is in fact making people more apprehensive. if you want to win your rights without harassment on that kind of level and financial requirement for the court costs, then you need to realize that our forward movement is going to be in baby steps. especially since the media is so anti-arms rights.

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    If a felon may properly be disbarred their rights under color of law, then we can all be legally disarmed merely by sufficiently lowering the bar of felony, as has been done for stressed veterans and alleged abusers.

    ETA: YOU do know that felony is a condition of punishment and not of the crime? A felon is defined as one liable to more than a year and a day of state supervision, including pre-trial intervention and alternative supervision programs.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-20-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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    Yes very true. Just make more and more things a felony. No new gun laws needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I think you misunderstand me, the people I am referring to are the so called "non violent" felons that are using A5 as a means to reinstate their arms right. these people are barred on a federal level.

    and yes I am well aware that the 2nd doesn't mention whether one is a felon or not.

    And I also understand the agenda of those of us wishing to open carry is to essentially acclimate the public to seeing people open carrying. however felons trying to use A5 isn't doing US any favors right now and is in fact making people more apprehensive. if you want to win your rights without harassment on that kind of level and financial requirement for the court costs, then you need to realize that our forward movement is going to be in baby steps. especially since the media is so anti-arms rights.
    Activism of any kind, whether by non-violent felons or citzens with no record of any kind, incites opposition.

    You say that "...felons trying to use A5 isn't doing US any favors right now and is in fact making people more apprehensive." Among other things, just what do you think "people" and the media say about those of us who choose to OC (open carry)??

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    yes it makes them apprehensive as well, but if your carrying you currently aren't a criminal.

    I see so many say those of us with guns say we are law abiding citizens, but a felon ( or the title of such as punishment for a crime) IS a criminal, which if he has his rights reinstated completely refutes that argument.

    and I also understand that they can be pardoned by the state, or if the ATF was funded properly for certain provisions they could have their rights reinstated after filling out a form and being put under a review.

    if you want to go for the whole hog at once, you may as well just hand them your rights under color of law so they can strip it ALL away in one fell swoop.

    like I said they are apprehensive, but if you take it in stride and get more LAW ABIDING citizens on board, you are now ACCLIMATING. once acclimated it will be EASIER to pursue other venues.

    frankly the level of apprehension I'm getting from you guys right now I wouldn't want to be caught dead OC'ing in public with you because of how far you want things literally RIGHT NOW. you defeat yourselves.

    it is said patience is a virtue, maybe this rather socially tender topic should be handled with virtue?


    however this discussion is far from my initial questions so if you have experience in the Indep Suburb, I would like to hear about it, both positive and negative, mayhaps officers names to watch out for and how to properly refute them. or of course just do the typical stone wall of am I being detained, I would like to invoke my right to remain silent. etc etc.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    ...it is said patience is a virtue, maybe this rather socially tender topic should be handled with virtue?...
    Proper capitalization and proper punctuation are virtues also.

    I don't know that such things would make your ramblings easier to understand, but it's a start.

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    Yeah, well I obviously joined the wrong forum.

    we have people here that obviously don't understand the point of strategy, or why they are losing on the larger scale.

    sorry for wasting your time and my time. Mostly my time though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Yeah, well I obviously joined the wrong forum.

    we have people here that obviously don't understand the point of strategy, or why they are losing on the larger scale.

    sorry for wasting your time and my time. Mostly my time though.
    Lots of different personalities around here man. I'd stick around. New people seem to get hazed pretty hard sometimes I wouldn't take it personally.
    Advocate freedom please

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    OC, MCbeth, and stealthy, you guys are alright.

    however I just can't stand with people that are willing to fight a battle they aren't ready for.

    And even worse is once a legal precedent has been set it is all BUT impossible to change it. The felon doing so under amendment 5 in this current atmosphere is only setting up a precedent that will make it impossible for the average citizen who made a dumb decision to ever challenge a court to regain his rights again.


    And frankly the goal should be to acquire new blood, and show them the ropes. Many here are thinking this should be a lot more like an exclusive club apparently. this further detriments the ability to achieve anything, as it prevents us as a whole of enthusiasts, both of guns/firearms, and rights, from standing together as one voice.

    we are a minority and as such our voice in courts and legal proceedings, including legislature is small, and is made ever more quiet by these types of attitudes I've found here.

    so like I said, I'm sorry I wasted my time, the only real help was from McBeth and OC for me. and the only friendly gestures where by You Stealth, OC for Me, and Mcbeth.

    To make an additional point after a few initial replies no one stuck to the original content. This helped no one.

    I sincerely intend to make this my last post. and in spare time will look for a way to delete my account as I see very little point in maintaining any presence here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    [ ... ] I sincerely intend to make this my last post. and in spare time will look for a way to delete my account as I see very little point in maintaining any presence here.
    Change your password to a random sequence without looking, cut&paste it into the confirmation block. TTFN
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    --snipped--

    I sincerely intend to make this my last post. and in spare time will look for a way to delete my account as I see very little point in maintaining any presence here.
    No account/registration is totally deleted - the ability to post is just lost/restricted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post

    the specific references on local municipal code I was wondering as to which I should memorize are the lawful/unlawful weapons use.

    I have read our local municipal code multiple times and have seen no mention of open carry listed as unlawful. mostly it's discharging a firearm within city limits or across a highway unless the discharge is in self defense.
    thats because there isnt any. Or if there are they are illegal and void. MO has preemption now. No city, county, municipality etc may have a law stricter than state law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    And even worse is once a legal precedent has been set it is all BUT impossible to change it.
    Quite the contrary. There have been many rulings, going back far enough that upload the right to bear arms and rulings that laws contrary to the Constitution are void. Yet if you try to OC in downtown LA or NYC you'll know about it, and not in a good way
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    I have read RSMo a couple of times, but not to the point I have it memorized

    the specific references on local municipal code I was wondering as to which I should memorize are the lawful/unlawful weapons use.

    I have read our local municipal code multiple times and have seen no mention of open carry listed as unlawful. mostly it's discharging a firearm within city limits or across a highway unless the discharge is in self defense.

    I agree with a CCW endorsement as it eliminates a lot of hassle, as you can then, by state law, open carry anywhere in the state, with the only problem being needing to provide a CCW endorsement to law enforcement upon request.
    Depending on your jurisdiction what you know matters not, what a cop knows is all that really matters. Know your local laws and carry as you see fit and when you deem appropriate.

    As far as "A5" is concerned, top cops, the smart ones, don't want to touch that with a 10' pole. This is evidenced by STLPD Top Cop Sam "I never saw a gun restriction I didn't like" Dotson is suing to overturn the "will of the voters" based on a technicality. If he and his anti-liberty & anti-citizen cronies fail he'll keep on harping over the judges letting thugs walk the streets.

    They couldn't care less about you or I OCing as long as we don't go breaking the law using our gun. The opinion of the beat cop matters little unless he acts unlawfully motivated by his opinion. I don't give much thought to cops while carrying and they give little thought to me if they know I'm carrying. A5 can be credited with this shift in my view.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Yeah, well I obviously joined the wrong forum.

    we have people here that obviously don't understand the point of strategy, or why they are losing on the larger scale.

    sorry for wasting your time and my time. Mostly my time though.
    Sorry you have some butt hurt.......but either way....ok.

    However, regrading the bold, can you explain and provide examples for this statement....not sure what you mean here.
    Last edited by Redbaron007; 01-21-2015 at 12:04 PM. Reason: schpellin
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Depending on your jurisdiction what you know matters not, what a cop knows is all that really matters. Know your local laws and carry as you see fit and when you deem appropriate.

    As far as "A5" is concerned, top cops, the smart ones, don't want to touch that with a 10' pole. This is evidenced by STLPD Top Cop Sam "I never saw a gun restriction I didn't like" Dotson is suing to overturn the "will of the voters" based on a technicality. If he and his anti-liberty & anti-citizen cronies fail he'll keep on harping over the judges letting thugs walk the streets.

    They couldn't care less about you or I OCing as long as we don't go breaking the law using our gun. The opinion of the beat cop matters little unless he acts unlawfully motivated by his opinion. I don't give much thought to cops while
    carrying and they give little thought to me if they know I'm carrying. A5 can be credited with this shift in my view.
    (my bold above)

    HOLD ON THERE PARDNER!!

    A court or legislature needs to tell us what A5 means before any of you lowdown varmints start ignoring local laws!!

    Last edited by BB62; 01-21-2015 at 11:46 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    (my bold above)

    HOLD ON THERE PARDNER!!

    A court or legislature needs to tell us what A5 means before any of you lowdown varmints start ignoring local laws!!

    A5, in quotes, is easier to type than Article I, Section 23.

    I'll backtrack to a OC walk shortly after A5 morphed into Art. I Sec 23. Cops did not, via their discretion , check for "permits" two months before SB656 (OC with a permit state wide) became the law of MO. At that time the only defense anyone would have had in the City of St Louis was the threat of using A5 to defend against a weapons charge thus nixing all firearms laws in MO except CCing laws.

    Top cops who decidedly do not want citizens to go about lawfully armed...cough-Dotson-cough...are not stupid. They want OC via "permission" for as long as they can have it. Most folks will get/use a endorsement just in case and happily "display" it upon the request of a cop.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A5, in quotes, is easier to type than Article I, Section 23.

    I'll backtrack to a OC walk shortly after A5 morphed into Art. I Sec 23. Cops did not, via their discretion , check for "permits" two months before SB656 (OC with a permit state wide) became the law of MO. At that time the only defense anyone would have had in the City of St Louis was the threat of using A5 to defend against a weapons charge thus nixing all firearms laws in MO except CCing laws.

    Top cops who decidedly do not want citizens to go about lawfully armed...cough-Dotson-cough...are not stupid. They want OC via "permission" for as long as they can have it. Most folks will get/use a endorsement just in case and happily "display" it upon the request of a cop.
    Well, not really a OC walk like the Arch walk, I got "caught" OCing in STL City, south of Soulard Market. Cop smiled, waved, as he drove by. I know he saw the gat, a P90 in a brown leather holster hanging off my hip.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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